Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online

Quote
sureshot007

How will the national guys and manufacturers feel about getting beat by regional guys, running faster cars?

Why are the "National " guys in slower cars?
Who said the "regional" guys are in faster cars?
Did somebbody hold a gun to "the guy" and force him to choose some slow POS?

Quote

Sure, they aren't competing for the same goal,

Of course they are. The goal is to have a lot of fun throwing gravel.
It is not professional. Pat Richard pays the rent tuning the rich-boys street cars, 4 star selling tires, Can-jam I don't know, Lance Smith at Vermont gets paid to build cars, but anybody that wishes can pay them whatever it is now---it was a decade ago about 32-34,000 per event..and there were guys paying that ---to go play---and pretend---they were "professionals".

The only difference between people is what box they check off on the entry form and what the words on the licence is in their pocket.

And that's their choice, just like choosing a car for whatever reason is.

Quote

but if I were a manufacturer competing for a national championship, and a handful of regional competitors were seeded before me, I don't think I'd be happy about that.

probably not, and thankfully there are no manufacturers in North America...
Only some small shops receiving money from national importer's ad departments..
A huge difference.

Quote

The idea that spectators would see regional guys coming down the road first isn't appealing either.

Oh! snap! I forgot, you've been out for 20 years asking all the spectators!
I guess all the speccies I talked to---being the friendly and open and enthusiast guy I am I talk to a lot of people, I must have just by some bizarre fluke only spoken with people who were excited to see any car aggressively driven---and were non-impressed with a bunch of slow driven cars..perrenial favorites have been from the 90s on Carl Jardevall in the Yellow School Bus (740 Volvo) John Lane in the SPE (Swedish Penis Extender) Grant Whiting in the old whore of a Colt fighting with Vern Johnson is the boring looking Corolla---both beating overall "National" cars on occasion---and often a favorite was a red 1969 Saab always in the top 5-6 overall--or top 10 National times with me driving---which means all these cars were driven hard.. Speccies could SEE that.. they know "Thart fawking guy in the gawddam yellow Volvo" or "that crazy ass guy is the old Saab"

They---and we --expected the shiney cars to have the fastest times, but the treat was the other cars---it was identification---they could imagine themselves owning a whatever.. but not a brand new turbo 4wd thing.

Quote

So then, what incentive to the events have to allow these faster cars for the regional?

You still yammering about that? I didn't see you explain what cars were faster, and nobody is arguing to have advantages in terms of the speed of the car, they're arguing against the COST of redoing their cars when there IS no advantage as they currently exist and for which there is a 20 year record to refer to.
It is not just the motor which makes a car fast.
Motor does one thing, the gearbox and then the final drive THEN multiply that.
The difference is the COST to make a n.a. car, or a pointlessly 32mm restricted car go fast.

Somehow you don't seem to grasp that inescapable fact

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
Ferdinand

I'm just not buying the argument that some manufacturer is wanting to enter the 2wd Open Class, but is afraid of getting whupped by Gr5 cars. So let's hobble all the Gr5 cars to fix it so that an underpowered new manufacturer entry has a chance of winning. That seems wrong to me.

It's not the reasoning, unless you like to wear tinfoil hats.

But it was definitely a CONSIDERATION when proposing to do a new ruleset. Not a large one, but from my understanding, the thought was there.

We know its not prosecuted up there like down here, but what were they smoking?

If an importer wants to "enter the 2wd open class" then they could just enter same as anybody building a car in their garage.
Why should "everybody" meaning all the ordinary club members, have to spend ridiculous money of their limited budgets on the theoretical chance some importer might maybe want to enter the class?

This is the game--its been that way for X years, wanna join this game, these are the rules, pull up a chair.

Does anybody know if anybody has ever complained about the existsing Gp2 and Gp5 rules saying they feel handicapped?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Ferdinand
2wd is naturally self-regulating. More power in 2wd is certainly fun, but it's NOT a guaranteed winner. Look at Black River Stages this weekend. The overall winner, beating all of the Gr5 cars, even all the 4WD entries, was Kevin Turner / Matthew Rhoads in a 2.2 litre normally aspirated FWD Subaru. How cool is that?

The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

I was going to type out a whole response detailing how you misinterpreted almost every single point I was trying to make in my post, but it just dawned on my how much work that would actually be. Then, i realised that whatever I typed as response would just be torn apart by you as well. So there really is no point.

Quote
hoche
The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

I thought the only time 2WD cars won was when the people in AWD cars don't show up to events because they're hunkering down getting ready for the economic horrors of a second Obama presidency.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
Ferdinand

I'm just not buying the argument that some manufacturer is wanting to enter the 2wd Open Class, but is afraid of getting whupped by Gr5 cars. So let's hobble all the Gr5 cars to fix it so that an underpowered new manufacturer entry has a chance of winning. That seems wrong to me.

It's not the reasoning, unless you like to wear tinfoil hats.

I certainly hope that wasn't the reason, because it sure seems dumb to me.

Quote
HiTempguy
But it was definitely a CONSIDERATION when proposing to do a new ruleset. Not a large one, but from my understanding, the thought was there.

If that wasn't the primary reason, then the only other reason that has been put forth is that it's not "fair" to force "under-powered" Gr2 cars to compete directly against "over-powered" Gr5 cars within the proposed combined single Open-2wd Class. So far, I haven't seen a convincing case put forward for that either.

How often do Gr5 cars actually win over Gr2 cars?

Yes, in all modesty and humility, Martin and I in the Gr5 Nissan 240 have often been "competitive". But we have only very rarely (if ever?) been the quickest of all our 2wd competitors. Our best results more often than not seem to come from the fact that Martin has built a heavy tank of a car, equipped with a reliable powerplant, the combination of which can absorb a ton of punishment. Martin uses his head to drive smart, always aiming to finish, whereas the often faster peaky tweaked-out Gr2 cars generally tend to break down more often.

Quote
sureshot007
I was going to type out a whole response detailing how you misinterpreted almost every single point I was trying to make in my post, but it just dawned on my how much work that would actually be. Then, i realised that whatever I typed as response would just be torn apart by you as well. So there really is no point.

Do you always complain as much when people take the time to wade through your stuff and try to help you understand?
Conversation---and learning--actually takes some effort...

And if I misinterperted what you wrote, have you considered that it might possibly be beause it was maybe unclear? Or thet you might possibly be mistaken?
Only by zeroing in on areas of misunderstanding can real understnding take place..

To be quite honest I have no idea of what you are trying to say--since both reality--as in past experience---and words ----don't seem to engender an appropriate response.

Why don't you take the big chip off your shoulder, quit complaining and join in a dialog?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
hoche

Quote
Ferdinand
2wd is naturally self-regulating. More power in 2wd is certainly fun, but it's NOT a guaranteed winner. Look at Black River Stages this weekend. The overall winner, beating all of the Gr5 cars, even all the 4WD entries, was Kevin Turner / Matthew Rhoads in a 2.2 litre normally aspirated FWD Subaru. How cool is that?

The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

And the spec of the car.
And the aims of the driver.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Ferdinand
Our best results more often than not seem to come from the fact that Martin has built a heavy tank of a car, equipped with a reliable powerplant, the combination of which can absorb a ton of punishment. Martin uses his head to drive smart, always aiming to finish, whereas the often faster peaky tweaked-out Gr2 cars generally tend to break down more often.

Martin is an adult, with a fambly and pays for this playing himself---and being just a touch older and expereinced, he uses his head.

It's a good package, its reliable---mostly and he should be commended and held up as a model... I know i have certainly pointed out to many guys what a nice sensible package used intelligently his car and approach is..

And unfortunately, talked a LOT of guys into Gp5. on that basis and suggested to anybody North of about 36*N to seriously consider Canajian events.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
hoche
The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

Ding-ding-ding, hold all calls, we have a winner! (Ya, I know it's already been mentioned before in this thread.)

But truly, the differences are very much dependent on the roads. On any given stretch of road, a Gr2 car can be more, equally, or less competitive than a Gr5 car, depending on the gearing used (as JVL keeps pointing out).

But that's why National Championships are contested via the combined results of several different events held on a wide variety of roads each with a completely different character. And, any good single event will use a wide variety of roads.

This was our first time competing at Black River Stages, but it's a perfect example. It has incredibly complicated technical sections, very tight corners in deep sand, where the turns come together so fast there's hardly enough time to breath between instructions. Ultimate top speed capability is totally irrelevant in there.

We were talking about those twisty sections during one of the breaks and agreed that RWD cars were at a big disadvantage in there. If drifting through the corners, FWD cars could hook their drive wheels down in the ruts, whereas we need to hook our front wheels into the ruts in order to just make it around the corner, while our rear drive wheels would always be riding up onto the deep soft sand berms where there's no traction to found.

Black River also has some ridiculously long straightaways where the faster cars could stretch their legs. For example on Fullerville, "R6+/smCr into R5/Cr 150 L6+ 100 smCr 600 L5lg 100 ! brake L3+> "

The Goose Pond stage alone has pretty much every possible combination, including huge jumps. This rally has it all. I don't think anyone could have predicted beforehand that a 2.2 litre normally aspirated fwd car would have come out as overall winner.

This is what all rallies should be like. It's not at all determined by who has the biggest budget or who has the biggest engine!

Quote
fliz
High HP cars are harder to drive.

Build a better car...... Use the right parts..... Grow some balls.... I can assure you that a powerful rear-driver is absolutely hilarious to drive fast.

Quote
fliz
For most of the low to mid level amateurs we have, it's easier to get in a G2 car and go fast. You just pin the throttle for 95% of the stage.

My take: If you're not having to use the brakes, the steering, feather the throttle you're not driving. I'm not up for a Sunday stroll through the woods; held back by the Soda-Straw; thanks.

Quote
fliz
Get in a high HP car and you have to feather the throttle & worry about braking on a lot more corners.

You should try it....... Bummer that Canadians are getting fucked by those who pick and choose their rules.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Quote
sureshot007
I was going to type out a whole response detailing how you misinterpreted almost every single point I was trying to make in my post, but it just dawned on my how much work that would actually be. Then, i realised that whatever I typed as response would just be torn apart by you as well. So there really is no point.

I'll also gently mention that there are but a few rules on this forum....

A real name.

Seems like a real location too. I don't care enough about that one to go look.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Quote
HiTempguy
Good thing you got your letter in, as there is a CARS board meeting coming up to discuss the rule changes.

It'll be interesting to see how this goes down. I personally never had an issue with the way the current rules are, so I don't really care one way or another. The open class guys being at 2900 pounds I could live with though

Those open class cars manage to get down to 2900lbs? Damn.......

Best I managed with the Volvo was 3025. Of course when I put my foot down.....

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Quote
JohnLane
Those open class cars manage to get down to 2900lbs? Damn.......

We have a production Evo X (totally legitimate) that weighs curb weight @ 3050lbs. It was the base of all base model Evo's available.

A PRODUCTION EVOX AT 3050lbs IS INSANE.

Open is (or was) 2700 pounds. I could do it with a GC8 I think, even with my meager fab skillz. My heavy-azz Impretzel is only 3200 ready to rally, which is impressive considering there was no consideration to weight.

Quote
Ferdinand
How often do Gr5 cars actually win over Gr2 cars?

Is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Simply based on HP/TQ, all other things equal, a G5 car SHOULD be faster, especially on NA roads. You can't base the ruleset around skills (even though I'd like to). Personally, I think MaxAttack is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'd love to see it here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2012 12:12AM by HiTempguy.

Quote
hoche

Quote
Ferdinand
2wd is naturally self-regulating. More power in 2wd is certainly fun, but it's NOT a guaranteed winner. Look at Black River Stages this weekend. The overall winner, beating all of the Gr5 cars, even all the 4WD entries, was Kevin Turner / Matthew Rhoads in a 2.2 litre normally aspirated FWD Subaru. How cool is that?

The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

What does the new G5 soda straw limit the HP too? Why not have them breathe through the PGT straw? Wasn't that good for ~225 AWD HP? But really, the only thing stopping a 2WD power monster is how many spare tires they have for the rears.

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
hoche
The problem with quoting one-off event results is that the G2/G5 differences are very much dependent on the roads.

I thought the only time 2WD cars won was when the people in AWD cars don't show up to events because they're hunkering down getting ready for the economic horrors of a second Obama presidency.

Or they crash out?
Or have problems on stage?

When I won overall day 1 of 2010 Rally Tennesee, Kearney crashed out on the second stage and he would have probably taken overall? I don't know what happend with Eduardo Bancalari because we were trading stage wins between us and Smith/Lantzy. And then I ran into a tree.

Not that i'm saying us 2WD guys are slow, but we shouldn't really lose to an AWD car... Even the open light cars are quick and it gets more so in the tight/slow stuff because they got the grip coming out of the turns. I saw that first hand at STPR comparing stage times, until Pritchard and Kramer crashed out on Day 2. It's a million times worse at Sno*Drift.