Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online

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HiTempguy

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Anders Green
Weird. If complexity reduction was a big factor (and whether it is or isn't, in Canada, would probably have to be figured out elsewhere) it would seem that getting rid of production altogether would be the way to go. The way I think I read it, with one P class allowing update/backdate, and the other P class not, seems pretty complicated. All open would probably removed 70% of the car rules. Production classes are always wordy.

And yet, every race series seems to have them... wierd eh? Maybe it's because manufacturers like production classes?

Non-argumentatively, and supplied only as a data point for future reference... ours doesn't. The Atlantic Rally Cup championship has only two classes: AWD and 2WD. At the event, we publish and announce scores/positions in more sub-classes, but there's no championship points for that. We switched to that in 2010.

Interestingly, I noticed that this year that we had our first event where zero P cars signed up. Cause? Effect? Can't say. There's generally 1 or 2 that do... but I don't think one/two P cars is actually statistically much different than the same rallies before we dropped a production championship. The last year we had a P championship, we averaged 0.5 P cars at an event and 1.6 PGT cars.

Another data point: I can't remember any emails or messages in the last couple years asking me for a production championship. Of the 11 drivers we had who entered in P classes the last year we did it, 8 are still competing 3 years later, which is actually well above the average as far as participation.

In any case... [official part of post] Adam, I will say that, as director of the Eastern Region of NASA Rally Sport (this is me speaking officially), I am VERY appreciative of the work you're doing and the effort you're putting forward to protect affordable regional rally. [/official part of post] (Hey, official smiley!)

Cheers!
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Do It Sidewayz
The restrictor is also pretty big for these guys, there is alot of $$ that goes into tuning properly for a restrictor.

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HiTempguy
Sounds like Martin Walter is ok nationally? So who does this really affect?

Martin is currently at Défi Ste-Agathe crewing for Warren Haywood/Jennifer Daly. I don't think he's even aware yet of this new development in the CARS rules.

Martin's Nissan is equipped with an SR20DET, 2.0 litre turbo. So I guess you could say we're "ok". However, we most certainly will be "affected" as this new rule will require us to fit a 32mm restrictor which will potentially require an expensive retuning of the engine.

Martin and I have run in G5 for many years now, and agree that the class is under-represented. There are not enough G5 cars competing. We have sometimes won legitimately, sometimes been beaten, but too often we have been embarrassed to accept G5 plaques and trophies when we know it was only because there was no one else competing in the class.

That said, we have very frequently and consistently been beaten by less powerful G2 cars! Remember Sprongl(!!) and Bacon driving those little yellow Suzuki Swifts, then Peter Kocandrle in the Swift and Golf. Lots of the Quebec Gr2 teams regularly kick our butts, Simon Dubé in a Golf, and Sylvain Vincent in his AE86 Corolla.

Of course more engine power is always a satisfying luxury in any car. But it is pointless to spend tons more money on that stuff when 2wd is essentially traction limited.

Yes, our SR20DET is potentially a very capable engine. But, in all the years I've ridden with Martin, that engine has never had the boost dialed up to maximum. The engine is tuned for max reliability, rather than max power. As far as I know nothing's been done to that engine in the last five years other than change the oil and spark plugs occasionally. We don't need more power. It's pointless. We need better traction. But Martin uses that power to steer the car, and it's fun to drive it that way (the spectators like it too) with the car firing rocks off those rear wheels whenever we get into the throttle.

The only time we've ever wished for more power was in the 2010 Targa Newfoundland. It's all tarmac, eh. With nice wide tires on the car we had all kinds of traction and grip. But there's no 94 octane fuel to be found on the island, so the boost had to be limited for 91 octane. Even worse, we were forced by the rules to run a 2.5 inch downpipe from the turbo exit to the catalytic converter. That completely strangled the engine. For the entire week of competition Martin bitched endlessly about how dead the engine felt. It wasn't FUN driving it like that.

Is it safer with less power? Does it make the car slower? For sure it hurt our straight line acceleration at Targa.

In the Modern Division, we were competing with our heavy Nissan 240 stage rally car against Porsche Turbos, Porsche GT2s and GT3s, and a Lotus Exige. We didn't have nearly the straight line performance we needed. So, to keep up with those guys we had to take some pretty big risks over blind crests, in braking, and in cornering instead.

We were 2nd overall in the Modern Division with only two stages to go on the last day when those risks caught up to us and we had our "F.. m.. g.. Veronica" moment sending us into a ditch.

In its Targa configuration our Nissan had way too much grip and not nearly enough power, which was a SCARY combination! In my opinion, it's far safer (and always more FUN!!!) the other way around, having a car with not enough grip and too much power.

What is the point of slapping a 32mm turbo restrictor on us??? Are we currently scaring away any potential manufacturer 2wd entries? If so, they should just hire Peter Kocandrle to drive for them. Petey K is long overdue for a sponsor-paid ride!

If someone does decide to look into bumping to 2.5 turbo and 3.0 N/A, can anyone off the top of their head list any engines that may be about to be commonly used in North American rally which are near or over the limits? Would bumping a bit more on the N/A side all for

Since I'm familiar with some of the BMW offerings, the M3 lineup bumped over the 3.0L level in 1996:

1996-1999 M3 3.2L 240hp/240tq
2001-2006 M3 3.2L 333hp/262tq

I know that personally what I was planning on doing with my car was trying it out for a season or so and determining if the car needed more power than what the 3.0 M3 engine could muster 240hp/225tq (bolt-ons & a chip can bump it to 255 and cams up another 15 or so...but at the cost of a peakier powerband). Seemed like the two choices are stick in a newer US spec M3 engine or mid-late 90s Euro motor (both 3.2L) for an extra 60hp or for a real bump in power, slap a low-boost blower kit on the current motor for an extra 150hp.

Dave

Well said Ferdiand. To Keith and Adam, thank you for answering questions for us here and voicing these opinions to the board. Please continue to fight so that we might continue to have a place to come battle it out up north. We have been coming, at least 5 of 21 cars at Big White '11, and good word of your events is spreading.

2wd should be 2wd, as was just stated so eloquently above, it is traction limited and hp/trq advantages diminish quickly. Duplessis doesn't seem too put off by Gr5 cars in his class. The gap would be further closed if the concern of speed was addressed in the most sensible way available. The roads. I understand this is a different can of worms but if you want to slow the feild down, cheaply, close the gaps in the classes, and highlight driver skill rather the team budget, it is by and away the clearest option.

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Zap zap my ass...

the lack of min. weight in 2wd doesn't make much sense. you could say 2200-2300lbs and create a reasonable (relatively cheap to attain) floor without eliminating any competitors.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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Anders Green
In any case... [official part of post] Adam, I will say that, as director of the Eastern Region of NASA Rally Sport (this is me speaking officially), I am VERY appreciative of the work you're doing and the effort you're putting forward to protect affordable regional rally. [/official part of post] (Hey, official smiley!)

Cheers!
Anders

Anders, please don't take my posts as attacking you if that is the case (and thanks for the thanks, I appreciate it). I have a problem with being sarcastic way too often. As for officially, I typically like to make sure people know when I am speaking as Adam (disgruntled government employee) or RallyWest President (whose only goal is to get as many people into rally as possible). They sometimes are two different people wearing two different hats. I represent the people who voted me in, therefore, I have no agenda of my own as president IMO besides what the rallyists want. This includes rule changes that may be detrimental to myself. I'll always be here however, so rule changes are sort of irrelevant for me.

Having said all of that, I would argue that production classes (are we going to beat this dead horse again? :p ) have a different priority in rally compared to the other race series I mentioned. At least here in Alberta, you can run a production car (especially to the new rules) extremely cheaply, like, BUILD a p-car cheaper than a Lemons car and run it on stock suspension (without fear of blowing the struts because of how smooth the roads are). Sounds pretty good to me. No, it won't be merkurs or volvos or bmws, which are all crazy expensive up here compared to running a Neon/Golve/Civic, but the fwd trifecta will be super cheap to start out with.

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Do It Sidewayz
We still really shouldn't be limiting competitors, especially in under subscribed classes.

I know it's ONLY 3-4 cars we'd be counting out....but we should be trying to get those 3-4 cars to our events, so the events and series can grow.

You think so? Nationally, it appears the solution was to get rid of those classes. Honest question, problem solved? If our national events aren't undersubscribed, what competitors do we truly need there? Obviously, more is better (this is me playing devil's advocate), what about quality of competitor at a NATIONAL level?

I disagree with your second point; we should get those cars out to REGIONALS, where they can still run. They can even run at a national event in the regional, at least, I would hazard a guess, for at least one more season.

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Martin's Nissan is equipped with an SR20DET, 2.0 litre turbo. So I guess you could say we're "ok". However, we most certainly will be "affected" as this new rule will require us to fit a 32mm restrictor which will potentially require an expensive retuning of the engine.

I absolutely understand the desire to keep costs down. However, I don't see a one time retune of $1k (or less) to be make or break in rallying (I am going to have to do the same thing with my new rallycar, I certainly wasn't happy about it). Which is completely different from the ridiculous FIA seat rules for instance... Anyways, I'm not even saying it's fair. It sucks. It practically singles you and Martin out as continuous competitors. But eventually, something was going to be done. For whatever reason, CARS has made the decision that the time for that to be done is now, rather than even a year later. Why that is, I don't know.

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And again, I have made my stance on CARS making significant changes with under a years worth of notice quite clear to them. It only hurts the little guy. Especially since while some would argue they are being given the notice now, it won't matter until the end of this season, with the new season starting up only 2 months later. Once the budget is set for a typical rallyist, it can't just magically grow to absorb additional costs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2012 12:20PM by HiTempguy.

Oh, trust me, I know about different hats! No, just a genuine high-five, and I thought it would be fun to do it in the same style as yours.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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KTurner
the lack of min. weight in 2wd doesn't make much sense. you could say 2200-2300lbs and create a reasonable (relatively cheap to attain) floor without eliminating any competitors.

Yeah I bet Garth A and I would just love to have to bolt in 200-300 lbs of lead in the car.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

One inch thick steel skid plate!

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Morison
Open 4WD
- 2500cc maximum engine displacement
- 34 mm turbo restrictor
- 2900 pounds minimum weight
- No other significant changes to the rules
- Note. The Board is considering a reduction of the turbocharger restrictor to 32mm beginning in 2014.

Open 2WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement for normally aspirated engines
- 2000cc maximum displacement for turbocharged engines
- 32 mm restrictor for turbocharged engines
- No other significant changes from Group 2 rules

Production 4WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement for normally aspirated engines and turbo charged engines
- 32 mm restrictor for turbocharged engines
- 3350lb minimum weight
- Variant restrictions removed. Updating and backdating of parts from models sold in North America allowed.
- Various other minor changes to simplify and reduce build costs

Production 2WD
- 2500cc maximum displacement
- Turbocharged engines not allowed.
- No minimum weight
- No updating or backdating of parts allowed.
- Various other minor changes to simplify and reduce build costs

If you are looking to attract manufacturers in new cars this classing makes perfect sense. I assume you guys looked into how the BRC change to 2WD in order to attract manufacturers worked? What's Australia doing?

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Grant Hughes

ok 2000lbs, what's with all the swifts and civics up there? a paseo? reminds me of the handful of open class gc8 imprezas running around with heavy plating due to the RA min weight.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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HiTempguy
I don't see a one time retune of $1k (or less) to be make or break in rallying (I am going to have to do the same thing with my new rallycar, I certainly wasn't happy about it). Which is completely different from the ridiculous FIA seat rules for instance...

Throw out perfectly good helmets because the sticker has expired... buy a HANS... FIA seats... belts... All those expenses are required in the name of safety and thus cannot be argued against.

Busted struts, ripped up tires, fuel for the truck and rally car... That's racing. It's the price of having fun.

$1k (or less) to install a restrictor and re-tune the engine? I suspect Martin will be pissed about that.

I know Martin wasn't happy with the downpipe restriction for Targa. There were several stages where we were hitting 200 km/h. We were suprised the old Nissan could actually attain such speeds. It climbed up there eventually, but it sure took a long time getting there. Those Porsche GT cars however could probably hit 200 on every short stretch between each intersection in Gander!

I'll admit I don't know enough about engine tuning. But even I know that sticking an intake restrictor into the airflow is going to hurt top-end horsepower. The solution, or so I've heard, is to rebuild and re-tune the engine instead for maximum torque at low rpms. That seems to work great for all those 4wd Open Class monsters that can apply this torque to the road, if their transmissions can cope with the increased torque loads. Those cars sure don't look any slower to me these days. But we don't need, and certainly can't make use of, any more low-end torque. We're already spinning wheels on gravel out of every slow corner even before the turbo spools up.

The beauty of the SR20DET is that it makes more than enough power (for a rwd car), as-is, at any rpm. It's basically stock and bullet-proof, untouched, unmodified and dead reliable.

So now we're forced to spend money messing with the engine to make rallying more affordable and to make our car "safer" and "slower" and less fun. I'm just not seeing the point of that.

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HiTempguy
Anyways, I'm not even saying it's fair. It sucks. It practically singles you and Martin out as continuous competitors.

In effect, yes, it does look like we've been singled out.

I can't believe that's actually the case though. I don't think we have (as Martin would put it) "pissed in someone's corn flakes" often enough to warrant being singled out for such punishment. And we are not consistently entered in enough National events, or running competitive often enough, to be a real threat to any 2wd title. We're only in it for fun.

We're wishing we could have gone back to Targa next week, but we'd have to sell a kidney each to be able to pay for that again. We considered running Défi this weekend, but we decided to save our money and Martin volunteered to crew for Warren.

Instead we're doing Black River Stages a week from now because we've heard that's a FUN event and we've always wanted to try it.

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Ferdinand
In effect, yes, it does look like we've been singled out.

I can't believe that's actually the case though.

I'd say it most certainly isn't. Some people were bound to get caught by the rule changes, I'm just saying, it unfortunately was you two

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Anders Green
One inch thick steel skid plate!

Sheeeeeeut, why didn't that just pop into my head?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Ferdinand


$1k (or less) to install a restrictor and re-tune the engine? I suspect Martin will be pissed about that.


I'll admit I don't know enough about engine tuning. But even I know that sticking an intake restrictor into the airflow is going to hurt top-end horsepower.

Yep that's what they do

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The solution, or so I've heard, is to rebuild and re-tune the engine instead for maximum torque at low rpms.

Rebuild means: buy some custom pistons for the highest static compression you can stand depending on bore and Nissan is 86mm so you can high 9s or even a smidge more, and make sure they have everything you can think of to mitigate detonation, that's about $720 set for custom forged pistons, buy funny camshafts for $600-1000 if you can find cams intending to be 32mm restrictor cams, but a starnge ass Garrett with BIG whatever you call it for high pressure ratio incoming versus outgoing---maybe $3000, qand a spare cuse they are T25 based and will want service circa 500km, find somebody experienced in mapping an optimised restrictor motor, that ought to be easy, just fly the car to the UK and I can suggest some places familiar with 32 and 34 mm restrictor motors, what does that cost?

It's just money

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That seems to work great for all those 4wd Open Class monsters that can apply this torque to the road, if their transmissions can cope with the increased torque loads. Those cars sure don't look any slower to me these days.

Early World Rally Cars with 2.0 and 34mm restrictor were average 3 km/hr faster than the Group B cars with their 44mm restrictors.

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But we don't need, and certainly can't make use of, any more low-end torque. We're already spinning wheels on gravel out of every slow corner even before the turbo spools up.

Oh no, no, no, no Horse Power is everything, some geniuses already figured that ouit. They talked to some 'tunerz".

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The beauty of the SR20DET is that it makes more than enough power (for a rwd car), as-is, at any rpm. It's basically stock and bullet-proof, untouched, unmodified and dead reliable.

That sorta what I've been saying about the ancient simple 2300 SOHC Turbo Fords and Volvos. Stock, put the key in and twist it and go..Sean Medcroft just shoved a stock cam back in his..much more torquier

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So now we're forced to spend money messing with the engine to make rallying more affordable and to make our car "safer" and "slower" and less fun. I'm just not seeing the point of that.

It's decided. They talked to tunerz..you have to do what they decided cause its safer and cheaper and will even out the power advantage that has led to all those big 2300 turbo cars crushing the little Honja and Golf guys relentlessly

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HiTempguy
Anyways, I'm not even saying it's fair. It sucks. It practically singles you and Martin out as continuous competitors.

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In effect, yes, it does look like we've been singled out.

Don't feel that way, chin up! Pull up your socks, its only money at least after an expensive rebuild you can actually drive your car in a 2wd class, think of the poor fools like Kevin Zidkovich in Red deer with his Volvo turbo, his a big flesh ripping 2300 8v, there's only open class for him.
Or the 2-3 guys with stock 3.0 BMWs---bang! Open class..

Too bad the decision makers themselves understand so little about what makes a car, ANY car, any use, go that they cannot see the gigantic, mountains inanity of their actions..
You Canajians should vote every single one out. who ever they are.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.