Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online

so lemme see if i got this straight...

i can continue to build my car with the turbo motor and run in the alberta/bc events as long as i don't wanna get points for a national chamionship?

i need to contact the organizers of each of these events to see if they plan to change the rules in the next year so my extra .3 litres of dispalcement wont force me into a driving a race car that wont accelerate up a hill because i gotta yank the snail off it?

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what could go wrong?

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john vanlandingham
And the reason the RA weights went up is because the Vermont Sports car Subies were newer, heavier models---they are a lot bigger cars, so when they went up, they just pick up the phone and call RA and poof a new rule "to be more fair and discourage "un-safe" construction" Rememeber anytime you need to do somethings stupid alway jsut blurt out "for safety".

This is not true.

But I see no point in arguing with you over it because you have this idea in your head and no amount of discussion with the people who wrote the rule will change your mind.

alan

In that case, I'm sure you have some examples or photos on file of the "unsafe lightening". It would certainly be educational to all, for the betterment of future construction, if you could share those details. As the construction methods weren't illegal prior to the rule change, there's no shame in having done them, so there shouldn't be any issue with sharing those details.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

The absolute worst precedent and STUPIDEST thing done in this whole thing is requiring restrictors in 2WD cars and no turbos in Production cars.
The new Chevy Cruze on paper looks like it could be a decent rally car but it's a 1.4L turbo which means Open which means restrictor possibly. I'd not be surprised if many of the 2WD newer cars with turbos have compressor inlet housings smaller than 34 mm but still.
If my Production based Chevy Cruze can mop the floor of a stock Ford Fiesta if driven properly, why not let Production compete against production.

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Grant Hughes

The Open AWD doesn't seem to get much heat, must be tolerable?

Production AWD seems to need fiddling still.

Open 2WD definitely seems to need adjustments.

Production 2WD doesn't appear to be perfect either.

But...CARS is not the lapdog of RA and seem to march to their own drummer. They have seen some of the things RA does as positive and chose others on their own. I really see no reason to attack over this supposed Collaboration Against Rally Supporters....

Sube is the top dog in the states, but only because people race them. Mitsu is top dog in Canada because people race them. The cars are pretty frickin competitve at any level and budget against each other. In reality both manufactures have supported both the series and racers and sport in general and I doubt there is any booking system in the world that can show that to be a positive cash flow proposition.

Ford is moving in to some degree and if they 'influence' any series so what? Any money brought in makes life easier for someone in the sport.

These rule changes , some goofy, some not, only affect Canadian National entries. It has been clearly stated the intent is not to affect regional events or competitors. Since it seems competitors can still run in Canadian regionals along side their National brothers then the problem is???? The problem is only affecting a very few national entries and the biggest impact will be on the wallet of the organizer who may lose some partial entry money by seeing a few less National entries being regional entries. And it has always been the mantra of many on here that both national events and entrants are things to deride.

This will be like self leveling paint in the end. If it doesn't work, events will lose entries, CARS will lose events and the next generation can do it differently. It evens out.

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pist'n broke
i need to contact the organizers of each of these events to see if they plan to change the rules in the next year so my extra .3 litres of dispalcement wont force me into a driving a race car that wont accelerate up a hill because i gotta yank the snail off it?

The organisers don't have a lot of say in the decision,although they are voices that will be heard. Contact your region President (adam) and region rally director (eric) and if you can,watch for the RallyWest AGM date and come out to it. (Likely held in Red Deer)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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NoCoast
The absolute worst precedent and STUPIDEST thing done in this whole thing is requiring restrictors in 2WD cars and no turbos in Production cars.

Hmmm. if you look at it from a sanctioning body viewpoint, if you want to move to a single 2wd class are you better off telling less than 20% or more than 80% of your current 2wd competitors they have to make significant changes to provide a level playing field? Allowing Gr5 to exist unchanged in a combined 2wd open means Gr2 drivers get screwed.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

how are gr2 drivers getting screwed? NO ONE IS DRVING FAST! When 2wd competitors start challenging the top open cars its time for a rule change. Quick gr2 drivers consistently take down gr5 competitors because there are more pointy gr 2 cars than pointy gr 5 cars.

I knocked the socks off of 99% of gr5 competitors and almost all of the old PGT cars when I was in a 120hp rabbit....drive faster.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Quote
Tom B
Quick gr2 drivers consistently take down gr5 competitors because there are more pointy gr 2 cars than pointy gr 5 cars.
I knocked the socks off of 99% of gr5 competitors and almost all of the old PGT cars when I was in a 120hp rabbit....drive faster.

We all know that with the current state of the sport, the driver makes far more difference than the car does. I competed with a PGT driver who was a fast driver and we regularly beat most of the open class field that we were running against.

BUT - when building class frameworks you simply can't consider the driver in the spec because we don't have driver classes. You have consider that when the competition gets tight, the cars get pointier. Big horsepower G5 cars also get an advantage when the roads get faster and grippier and all the driver has to do is hold the foot down. (Lane in Pomeroy, not saying he can't drive but a grid road rally will favour cars that can get to higher speeds)

So I think the Gr2 guy really does get screwed when you take an 'easy 200 hp, spendy 300 hp' class and pit them against 'easy 300 hp, spendy 500 hp
cars.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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heymagic
These rule changes , some goofy, some not, only affect Canadian National entries. It has been clearly stated the intent is not to affect regional events or competitors.

That is yet to be seen. Certainly the understanding is that regions can run their own classes but I wouldn't go as far as saying the intent is to not move the regional classing to match national classes eventually. I'm suggeting that the move will be slower and some classes may 'hold over' in the regions while there are still cars around to play. At leat that's what I would expect to see.

Quote
heymagic
Since it seems competitors can still run in Canadian regionals along side their National brothers then the problem is???? The problem is only affecting a very few national entries and the biggest impact will be on the wallet of the organizer who may lose some partial entry money by seeing a few less National entries being regional entries.

I'll note that the cost of running 'both' regionals is ususally within a few percent of running the national. We don't have the massive gap between National and Regional entry fees that's seen in the US. For the organiser, the entry will still come and it will effectively be at the same dollar.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

So don't run those fucking roads! You keep saying there isn't any subscription to gr5 but then ask me to cry for the poor little boy without a snail. BULLSHIT! You need competition and large competitive fields are built by having a large local base of competitors, something that N.American rally severely lacks, and these new rules snub. The new set of CARS classes is so wide open that anybody with pockets full of dollars could build something that would tear the ass out of any of the newly illegal gr5 cars.

I hope that the regional events will still have classes for these cars but to be honest that idea is a joke as well. No one will build a regional only car. Why would they? Even if not entering the national, everyone likes to compare to those running nationals in their class.

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Zap zap my ass...

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slidewayswrx
So don't run those fucking roads!

We're working on that, but try finding roads at all let alone roads you can get permissions for. (I probably spend the equivelent of an event's operating costs each year driving around and checking out potential roads.)

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slidewayswrx
The new set of CARS classes is so wide open that anybody with pockets full of dollars could build something that would tear the ass out of any of the newly illegal gr5 cars.

That's no different that our current rules. No matter what you do someone can go out and build to the limit of the rules and spend a shitload of money to get a faster car. They still have to drive it and that's where the plan usually falls apart.

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slidewayswrx
I hope that the regional events will still have classes for these cars but to be honest that idea is a joke as well. No one will build a regional only car. Why would they?

Why wouldn't they. In our case we have a very strong regional championship and unless we travel to at least one event in eastern Canada we don't even qualify for the season standings. (Must start 50% of the events - if you want to talk about a money wasting rule... there it is for you.)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
tipo158

Quote
john vanlandingham
And the reason the RA weights went up is because the Vermont Sports car Subies were newer, heavier models---they are a lot bigger cars, so when they went up, they just pick up the phone and call RA and poof a new rule "to be more fair and discourage "un-safe" construction" Rememeber anytime you need to do somethings stupid alway jsut blurt out "for safety".

This is not true.

But I see no point in arguing with you over it because you have this idea in your head and no amount of discussion with the people who wrote the rule will change your mind.

alan

There's not point in arguing and there's no point in "discussing" whatever alleged "motivations" were. Somebody for some reason decided to forget all the bullshit "we gotta do what FIA did on this, and that and everything" and we're to presume, on a whim cause they were bored cook up some new weight 2900 lbs. and 3300.
It doesn't matter why. It's just plain stupid. Jeff Mc Millen can just add 700 lbs, no problems

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison

Quote
NoCoast
The absolute worst precedent and STUPIDEST thing done in this whole thing is requiring restrictors in 2WD cars and no turbos in Production cars.

Hmmm. if you look at it from a sanctioning body viewpoint, if you want to move to a single 2wd class are you better off telling less than 20% or more than 80% of your current 2wd competitors they have to make significant changes to provide a level playing field? Allowing Gr5 to exist unchanged in a combined 2wd open means Gr2 drivers get screwed.

Only an ignorant person, or an idiot, looks at just the supposed horse power or torque of the motor..And person with an ounce of brains knows---and has more than ample evidence---that a properly built 2wd n.a. rally car can and does often match and beat the "normal" 2wd turbo cars.

What the motor does is only the first thing, what the owner decides to do in the gearset and final drive is the decisive thing.
A hot n.a. motor will really want a close ratio gearset of some sort, the closeness a direct function of how hot and peaky the motor is and what rpm peak torque and what rpm peak hp is.
Then the owner decides what final drive he will use if he wants to accelerate or crawl up thru the gears. If he is smart he will choose very short final drive, depending on tires, from 4.88 to 5.3 for cars with conventional gearsets with 1:1 4th, or if he has budget 4.2-4.27 ish for gear sets with underdriven top, like 1.15.
Smart fellows with Gp5 cars know they can, just by virtue of the engine making nice easy broad torque, skip modding the engine, run a stock wide ratio box, and even get by with final drive if its around 3.9, or spend under $150 for something a little shorter just to compensate for taller tires.
And despite the inevitable higher weight of a turbo car, do just fine.
Without wasting money in custom management, rolling road tuning etc.

There is no need for 'equalizing the performance' since the realistic limit is easily attained by either and that is the limit of what just 2 tires can apply to a gravel surface..
And that should be obvious and common knowledge to anybody from this world or this reality.

Sadly it seems those in the decision making positions in Canada lack that.

So just what are people with 2,3 turbos who decide they the PERSON wants to enter a national supposed to enter?

It seems their choice is enter Open and just spend a few thousnd to fit a 34mm restrictor and buy a tuneable management system and pay for rolling road time.

Or throw away their previously perfectly good motors, find or build a 2.0 motor for 4-6k and then do the management and tuning..

Real equalization there. That's looking ahead!
Good job!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
An[y] person with an ounce of brains knows---and has more than ample evidence---that a properly built 2wd n.a. rally car can and does often match and beat the "normal" 2wd turbo cars.

Cars don't beat cars, drivers do.

As has been said time and time again, the CARS rules process is an open one and rule change requests are welcomed. Making the request doesn't guarantee the change but it's better than just whining about it. (Although some people love being the victim and see conspiracy all around them.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.