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Tom B
I'm in this post for me and my future cars....I haven't run in Canada, but it has been on my list of to do's for literally YEARS. I can't wait to run PFR or Big White, it'll be a kick! But if CARS thinks I am going to spend another $5-1500 making a restrictor and re-tuning my car to run at a LOWER spec they are out of their fucking minds.

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Tom B
Is there another explanation?

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Class change committee chair
I am not in the habit of writing here in the forum but I believe this is a matter that warrants some comments to explain the reasons why the rules were written this way.

First of all when we set out to review the car classes we looked at what each class was supposed to offer the sport and competitors and possible sponsors. 2WD and particularly Production 2WD class was possibly the class where we spent the most time with the rules's committee to ensure it would hit the intended target. This target was for P-2WD to be the entry level class, a class that is inexpensive to start with, less expensive than all the other 3 classes to maintain, make the cars more fun to drive and quicker that before but also not allow this class to have a particular make or model that would have such an advantage that it would make it a one car class.

To these ends we allowed free brakes, and a few other free items that don't require huge investments including making the car lighter but with some restrictions for safety. We never intended to build a "catch all" class that would fit most vehicles as some samples people bring up above. The reason for this is that you have to draw the line somewhere to ensure you don't end up with a class that fits most cars but leads to one specific car that would have a huge advantage over the rest, whether because of power to weight ratio or any other reason.
So why not V6 or 2.4 turbo? because there are more 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 liter engines that we need to include than V6 or 2.4 liter turbo cars that most would want to rally. We did research this and found that for every V6 or 2.4 Turbo there are 10 or more models that are normally aspirated 2500 cc or less.

Allowing a V6 would turn P-2WD into a "Golf VR6" class... sorry, no special advantage to any specific car.
Allowing a 2.4 liter Turbo would turn P2WD into a "Neon SR-T" and again would be too far away from all the other cars available for this class.
As a matter of fact manufacturers are moving towards smaller displacement forced induction engines (1.3 turbo, 1.4 turbo, 1.6 turbo, etc) As these cars & engines become more common, these are the ones we might see included in this class some day with a turbo limit of maybe 1.5 liter?, this is up to competitors to demand it for future consideration.

I would also like to take the opportunity to answer a specific question as to why we are not allowing updating and backdating of parts for Production 2WD; Personally I don't even agree with allowing this on Production 4WD since we are just creating a Subaru (STi components) class and I am a firm believer of not making any class a one brand class.
However when it comes to 2WD.. remember the objectives and targets?; to make it an entry level class with less investment and less maintenance and less expensive modifications.
If we allow parts to be updated and backdated what would stop me or anyone from buying a 1991 Golf and sticking a 2010 2.5 liter Golf engine? or a 1993 Civic and sticking a 2.0 or 2.4 liter Honda engine in it? and once one does this the rest would feel compelled to do the same to stay competitive. This is not what we want for this entry level class. I can understand why some would want to build a car like this but this would not fit the intention of the class and it would be best if that competitor simply went to Open 2WD .
With cars traditionally getting heavier and heavier another unintended effect would be that we would see more old shells (which are traditionally lighter) with new engines underneath. Older shells don't do any favours to the sport.

People starting up in this sport should understand the value of starting with an inexpensive and simple car like a P-2WD and use it to it's fullest potential. Invest the money entering more events instead of more modifications and you will become a fast driver in a shorter period of time and with less expense.

As far as Open 2WD goes, like many I feel we have struck the perfect balance by allowing larger normally aspirated engines (2500cc) to compete with smaller forced indution engines (2000cc)

As I said before you can't please everyone. and that was certainly not the intention here, Our intention was to do what would be best for the sport as a whole and thus by making the sport stronger and better this would benefit everyone.

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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BillyElliot

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fliz
RA made their own B-spec series, and announced it in a rules bulletin. Pretty much any new P class car:

http://rally-america.com/RuleBulletin/Rule_Bulletin_2012_006.pdf

So I guess I read that bulletin wrong. You simply need to enter a P class car from that list... period. So you can do things outside of the offical B-Spec rules, like stitch weld chassis, plate shock towers, add a LSD, run adjustable dampers can run to the P class weight limits and do not need a restrictor if the rules call for it?

Maybe Alan can help me out on this one?

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This target was for P-2WD to be the entry level class, a class that is inexpensive to start with, less expensive than all the other 3 classes to maintain, make the cars more fun to drive and quicker than before

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As a matter of fact manufacturers are moving towards smaller displacement forced induction engines (1.3 turbo, 1.4 turbo, 1.6 turbo, etc) As these cars & engines become more common, these are the ones we might see included in this class some day with a turbo limit of maybe 1.5 liter?, this is up to competitors to demand it for future consideration.

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However when it comes to 2WD.. remember the objectives and targets?; to make it an entry level class with less investment and less maintenance and less expensive modifications.

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Older shells don't do any favours to the sport.

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BillyElliot

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fliz
RA made their own B-spec series, and announced it in a rules bulletin. Pretty much any new P class car:

http://rally-america.com/RuleBulletin/Rule_Bulletin_2012_006.pdf

So I guess I read that bulletin wrong. You simply need to enter a P class car from that list... period. So you can do things outside of the offical B-Spec rules, like stitch weld chassis, plate shock towers, add a LSD, run adjustable dampers can run to the P class weight limits and do not need a restrictor if the rules call for it?

Maybe Alan can help me out on this one?

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frumby
Gene... That post really hits the nail on the head! Also.. 'older shells do no favors to the sport'??? What does favors to the sport is not excluding anyone. Not a single competitor. If the guys who can afford to buy a new car can't figure outhow to make it faster than a thirty year old beater, then so be it.
For 2wd open Max Attack style is the way to go. There was no need to equalize power with restrictors. NA cars beat turbos with double hp all the time. If you want huge hp then build that car. Simple.
Let's hope this retardery doesn't flow south any time soon.

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Doivi Clarkinen
You know what I'm gonna do? If Morison comes down here for Olympus I'm going to sit both JV and Keith down and buy you both a beer. No, make that a round of beers. Good stuff, too. I bet you guys would actually get along famously in person.

OK, maybe not.

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tipo158

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BillyElliot

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fliz
RA made their own B-spec series, and announced it in a rules bulletin. Pretty much any new P class car:

http://rally-america.com/RuleBulletin/Rule_Bulletin_2012_006.pdf

So I guess I read that bulletin wrong. You simply need to enter a P class car from that list... period. So you can do things outside of the offical B-Spec rules, like stitch weld chassis, plate shock towers, add a LSD, run adjustable dampers can run to the P class weight limits and do not need a restrictor if the rules call for it?

Maybe Alan can help me out on this one?

First, a heads up. I am not following this (or any) thread closely. I have a lot of Olympus stuff on my plate. But occasionally I want to take a break and drop in and look around and even more occasionally stupidly chime in.

So, to the question ... The RA B-Spec championship is just a championship for particular model cars running in P class. No new class rules, just a new championship within the existing class rules. I just did a quick scan through the SCCA B-Spec rules and it looks like it is likely a SCCA B-Spec car wouldn't meet RA rules and a vice versa. It might be possible to build a car that could run both with a set-up change between event types.

alan

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BillyElliot
The big difference is that you need to build the car with beefier/heavier rally cage which a lot of road race weenies won't like to have.

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Doivi Clarkinen
I bet you guys would actually get along famously in person.

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Doivi Clarkinen
You know what I'm gonna do? If Morison comes down here for Olympus I'm going to sit both JV and Keith down and buy you both a beer. No, make that a round of beers. Good stuff, too. I bet you guys would actually get along famously in person.

OK, maybe not.