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john vanlandingham
Gee, I wonder just what those respected rally car builders and engine builders each with significant and respected competition and preparation experience work on?

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Um... rally cars and engines. (duh)
In all seriousness the names of the shops don't really matter. They are, in the eyes of the committee, reputable and informed sources. I can assure you cost was a part of the discussion.

Yeah right it doesn't matter...thank you for deciding that for everybody.
We all love paternalism round these parts.
You say they build cars for entry level guys, that's all we need to know.

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john vanlandingham
Because you must admit that it is fairly evident that somebody gave no thought to what restrictors on Group5 cars will cost...

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Being that I was involved in discussions about the cost of restrictors to G5 cars I can assure you there was thought given to it.

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john vanlandingham
...and how that will slow down Open class cars.

Restrictiors in Gr5 did not come about from the concerns about the average speeds being maxed out.

[/quote]

Oh, I'm sure you can see how we misunderstood from the announcement which seemed to read "Open cars too fast, dwindling new blood, confusion in P class, better restrict Gp5.."

I'm sure everybody feels a lot better now.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 05:46PM by john vanlandingham.

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Morison

Restrictiors in Gr5 did not come about from the concerns about the average speeds being maxed out.

Oh. really. Was it the affordable performance that was the problem?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Morison
Also, from an ottawa base, you can qualify for the Canadian Championship while towing a TOTAL of 1100km.

Martin Walter and Ken Legarec won the Gr5 Championship in 2007.

Martin and I won it in 2008.

We could have won it again in 2009 just by showing up at more events to qualify, but there's no honour (or joy) in winning a Championship simply by showing up. Martin and I instead went to NEFR and discovered how much FUN the 2wd MAX-Attack series is. And my son and I did Targa Newfoundland together that year (winning Grand Touring).

In 2010 we had no interest whatsoever in the National series, other than Tall Pines because it's an awesome event that can't be missed. We went back to NEFR for another shot at MAX-Attack, and Martin and I then broke the piggy bank to do Targa together.

2011 was spent climbing out of Targa debt, eating Kraft Dinner for a year, but can't miss MAX-Attack at NEFR with 11 Gr5 cars running, plus 15 Gr2 cars (count 'em)! And we did Pines, because it's Pines.

2012 we tried Perce Neige again and had fun. But if anyone believes that a "powerful" Gr5 car enjoys an advantage over lesser powered Gr2 cars on the snow and ice of Perce Neige, they're delusional. We had planned to do NEFR again, but a date conflict forced us to choose the closer Black Bear Rally instead (because it's run on Pines roads!). No NEFR, so we're doing Black River Stages instead where our Gr5 is accepted as "Open 2wd Heavy".

If we were rich (or adopted by a rich sponsor), we'd be running every rally everywhere in a Lancia Stratos! We're not rich, or sponsored, so we run whatever rallies we can afford, whichever ones we think will be fun, in a reliable old workhorse of a Nissan 240SX.

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Morison

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Ferdinand
In fact, all the Gr5 cars are also already getting whupped by those fastest Gr2 cars.

But we're back to talking about classing the drivers, not the cars.

We seem to be going around in circles on this point.

Drivers (and co-drivers) win Championships, not cars. I could be driving Ken Block's latest car, and Chris Duplessis in his Gr2 Fiesta is still going to beat me.

Martin Walter is an excellent driver in an adequate car. We only get beaten because we've pushed too hard and broke something, or because someone else has pedalled their car better than we have.

There are enough Gr5 cars out there, just not enough Gr5 drivers willing to commit to doing a full National season. Eliminating Gr5 cars isn't going to entice those drivers into signing up for more events.

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john vanlandingham
Oh, I'm sure you can see how we misunderstood from the announcement which seemed to read "Open cars too fast...

I suggest you re-read the announcement.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Ferdinand
There are enough Gr5 cars out there, just not enough Gr5 drivers willing to commit to doing a full National season. Eliminating Gr5 cars isn't going to entice those drivers into signing up for more events.

Understood.
If you re-read Tom's notice, you'll see that it specifically mentions allowing G5 to continue in regional championships as it stands today. That is down to the regions - so make sure you're heard. (and make sure Pines hears you wanting a full distance regional option or the ability to run a regional class in the national event.)

Also, petition CARS to expand Open 2wd to include Gr5 cars unchanged, regardless of how it might affect you.

Change won't come from arguing on a forum.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Sorry Adam, didn't realize who did what up there...still don't for that matter.

Just to keep beating the dead horsey....

I started at Olympus 1983, I had been physically close to one rally car ever , a Datsun 1200. Very unsophisticated by todays standards. There likely was Production, Production GT and Open. I have no sure memories of the classes, doesn't matter tho. I raced Open in a 1400cc Datsun with one set of street tires and no odo, finished 20th out of 21. Know who won??? Buffum, in the early Quattro (he also started in 2wd cars). While I was terribly emotionally scarred by no one protecting me from getting beat by more power, more talent, more money, I somehow survived to keep going event after event. Several Canadian events as well, the last of which I won overall. I rallied slow cars, fast cars, small cars, obscure cars, poplular cars, RWD,FWD and AWD. I'd guess I have more dust collectors boxed away downstairs than any two people on this forum. I had my car break on an unintended jump about 1.5 miles away from taking the divisional run-offs. 70hp cars, 300 plus hp cars, turbo car, Webers, Mikunis, Solex, EFI...pretty much everything. Somehow thru all of that I survived, had fun, had a family, business, paid bills, grew as a driver, got faster and had fun. Made relationships that last to this day. I never cried or whined about getting beat by faster cars or better drivers, neither did Dave Clark, JVL, Sean Tennis or any of the dozens and dozens of quality people involved over the years.

Merge the classes, no problem. Butcher the classes in the name of ______ (fill in the blank) and big problem. Not only is someone fixing something that isn't broken or needed, but I'm not seeing any sound reasoning..at all...from anyone.

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tipo158

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NoCoast

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BillyElliot
The big difference is that you need to build the car with beefier/heavier rally cage which a lot of road race weenies won't like to have.

Technically some elements of a FIA spec cage can be removable. Main hoop X, Doorbars, Back stays and all optional cage elements.
Would require ALOT more work probably but would also allow unneeded components to be removed for lighter weight when road racing.

What about the allowed tube size difference? How much additional weight does a RA/FIA cage (even with removable elements) have over a SCCA B-spec cage with the minimum tube size?

alan

Probably not much honestly. But road race guys like to build to minimums (i.e. pikes peak evo guys).

You're talking about 1.75 main hoop, sill, a-pillar over standard 1.5. Then the addition of A-pillar support bar, and X in the main hoop with V in rear stays and roof compared to single diagonals. I mean it's added weight, in a class where lbs are worth a lot if it's difficult to get to the minimum weight.

Now, if the cars can't make minimum weight without ballast, then why not add the additional cage elements?

"Maybe to clarify, the committee talked to several respected rally car builders and engine builders each with significant and respected competition and preparation experience"

I'm guessing that these are in Canada?

Most respected in Canada... If I had to guess... Fourstar Motorsports, Can-Jam Motorsprots, and Rocket Rally. Perhaps there's others I don't know about, but that's the 3 I would list.

But none of this really matters, and neither does the rhetoric going back and fourth on this thread. The rule change is in the motions, and the focus should be to express how we feel about it to the people making the decisions.

If someone would post links to the people's email address we can send emails to, that would be a good first step to perhaps help facilitate second thoughts.

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RWD4ME
If someone would post links to the people's email address we can send emails to, that would be a good first step to perhaps help facilitate second thoughts.

http://www.carsrally.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&view=category&catid=0&Itemid=40&lang=en

Right there on the association's website.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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heymagic
Sorry Adam, didn't realize who did what up there...still don't for that matter.

Just to keep beating the dead horsey....

I started at Olympus 1983, I had been physically close to one rally car ever , a Datsun 1200. Very unsophisticated by todays standards. There likely was Production, Production GT and Open. I have no sure memories of the classes, doesn't matter tho. I raced Open in a 1400cc Datsun with one set of street tires and no odo, finished 20th out of 21. Know who won??? Buffum, in the early Quattro (he also started in 2wd cars). While I was terribly emotionally scarred by no one protecting me from getting beat by more power, more talent, more money, I somehow survived to keep going event after event. Several Canadian events as well, the last of which I won overall. I rallied slow cars, fast cars, small cars, obscure cars, poplular cars, RWD,FWD and AWD. I'd guess I have more dust collectors boxed away downstairs than any two people on this forum. I had my car break on an unintended jump about 1.5 miles away from taking the divisional run-offs. 70hp cars, 300 plus hp cars, turbo car, Webers, Mikunis, Solex, EFI...pretty much everything. Somehow thru all of that I survived, had fun, had a family, business, paid bills, grew as a driver, got faster and had fun. Made relationships that last to this day. I never cried or whined about getting beat by faster cars or better drivers, neither did Dave Clark, JVL, Sean Tennis or any of the dozens and dozens of quality people involved over the years.

Merge the classes, no problem. Butcher the classes in the name of ______ (fill in the blank) and big problem. Not only is someone fixing something that isn't broken or needed, but I'm not seeing any sound reasoning..at all...from anyone.

If you remember, Gene, we didn't even have car classes for years in the NW, at least for regional event. It was just Expert, Experienced, and Novice. Didn't matter what kind of car you had, they were all lumped in together. If I got beat in my 90hp Opel by the guy in the 250hp peripheral port RX-7 it was because he drove faster than me.

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Doivi Clarkinen

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heymagic
Sorry Adam, didn't realize who did what up there...still don't for that matter.

Just to keep beating the dead horsey....

I started at Olympus 1983, I had been physically close to one rally car ever , a Datsun 1200. Very unsophisticated by todays standards. There likely was Production, Production GT and Open. I have no sure memories of the classes, doesn't matter tho. I raced Open in a 1400cc Datsun with one set of street tires and no odo, finished 20th out of 21. Know who won??? Buffum, in the early Quattro (he also started in 2wd cars). While I was terribly emotionally scarred by no one protecting me from getting beat by more power, more talent, more money, I somehow survived to keep going event after event. Several Canadian events as well, the last of which I won overall. I rallied slow cars, fast cars, small cars, obscure cars, poplular cars, RWD,FWD and AWD. I'd guess I have more dust collectors boxed away downstairs than any two people on this forum. I had my car break on an unintended jump about 1.5 miles away from taking the divisional run-offs. 70hp cars, 300 plus hp cars, turbo car, Webers, Mikunis, Solex, EFI...pretty much everything. Somehow thru all of that I survived, had fun, had a family, business, paid bills, grew as a driver, got faster and had fun. Made relationships that last to this day. I never cried or whined about getting beat by faster cars or better drivers, neither did Dave Clark, JVL, Sean Tennis or any of the dozens and dozens of quality people involved over the years.

Merge the classes, no problem. Butcher the classes in the name of ______ (fill in the blank) and big problem. Not only is someone fixing something that isn't broken or needed, but I'm not seeing any sound reasoning..at all...from anyone.

If you remember, Gene, we didn't even have car classes for years in the NW, at least for regional event. It was just Expert, Experienced, and Novice. Didn't matter what kind of car you had, they were all lumped in together. If I got beat in my 90hp Opel by the guy in the 250hp peripheral port RX-7 it was because he drove faster than me.

Oh thanks Dave...I nearly had the trauma blocked from memory. Now I'll have to start drinking again.

I think there were 2 regional classes A and B to start. Then the divisional stuff started with the 3 classes. Boy was that fair..Forespring being the sole arbiter of who was what and when. Damitio and I pushed to finally just get car classes about '05 . Funny after all these decades you,JV,myself and many others still talk to each other after all that abuse. 90hp Opel...replaced with turbo Dodge...we all had a ball didn't we? And now after all those years of great competition, rivalries and awesome rally cars there comes a group of Canadian 2wd guys who are so precious and fragile they can't stand a little competition? Gotta be more than that I'd hope, oh well, glad I don't have a dog in the fight.

First, I have no dog in this fight other than a love for my time going to CARS events with Cassidy when I lived in Maine. It's the whole reason I'm racing now.

Anyway, it would seem to me that if cost containment is one priority, slowing down folks another - why not ban sequential gearboxes. I'm pretty confident that having to use your left foot to do things manually, and the longer time it keeps your hand away from the steering wheel will slow people down. It will certainly help in the cost containment argument.

I'm a good example - In NRS, we're banned from using sequential boxes specifically since the NRS rules are focused on *grassroots* competition. I'm financially in a place to probably buy something in a stretch so I actually HAVE considered it but didn't execute to specific rules. This IS the arms race we're talking about here.

Now, if you're courting manufacturers who WANT to use sequential gearboxes for the speed advantage, it's clearly not in their interest to ban sequential gearboxes. But for the privateer/non-racecar-career-driving guy, it makes a heck of a lot sense to ban the gearboxes.

That said, it DOES reduce the sexiness factor of the cars. But they're already pretty darned sexy anyway. I lovingly talk about my car as a fire-breathing, turbocharged, stone-throwing AWD hoon-mobile. The description probably wouldn't change if it had a sequential gearbox

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EricW
Anyway, it would seem to me that if cost containment is one priority, slowing down folks another - why not ban sequential gearboxes. I'm pretty confident that having to use your left foot to do things manually, and the longer time it keeps your hand away from the steering wheel will slow people down. It will certainly help in the cost containment argument.

Actually, it was argued from a competitors standpoint for people who would actually BUY a sequential (Pat, Antoine, and Leo) that a sequential was cheaper in the longrun, due to the sequential significantly reducing the chances of a money shift, and with each shift being "perfect", the gearboxes last longer.

I don't know SPECIFICALLY which one of them argued this, but afaik all three have sequentials now. Pat still seems to be able to break any gearbox he touches, so YMMV.

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HiTempguy

Actually, it was argued from a competitors standpoint for people who would actually BUY a sequential (Pat, Antoine, and Leo) that a sequential was cheaper in the longrun, due to the sequential significantly reducing the chances of a money shift, and with each shift being "perfect", the gearboxes last longer.

I don't know SPECIFICALLY which one of them argued this, but afaik all three have sequentials now. Pat still seems to be able to break any gearbox he touches, so YMMV.

Same argument could be used for a whole list of items. Since Pat broke his Seq can he argue that if he is allowed a pneumatic seq that it would have saved him money... Not really a good argument considering the speed "issue". I can understand it if it was for a non-performance enhancing modification. CARS is in a tough position with this one. On the one hand if they say next year that Seq is not allowed, the big dogs will come UN-hinged (so would I). Then on the other if they let this slide it contributes to the conspiracy theory's... Glad I don't have to make THAT call.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

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zerodegreec
Same argument could be used for a whole list of items.

It certainly could. But it hasn't been. As Keith has pointed out, that is the outcome of a reasonable, logical rule proposal to the CARS board.