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starion887
If JVL wants to kill his own forum, let him;

This right here is the problem. It's *not* HIS forum. He just pretends it is.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

All the Subaru dealers around me in Southern California sell very few WRX/STi, the cars "sold" thru their involvement in rallying anymore. 5 or so years ago that's all they sold. Legacys, Foresters and Outbacks are the big sellers today. The BRZ doesn't even sell. Everybody buys the Scion version for the $2500 savings.

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2WD...Less Traction More Action!

It gets to a whole issue of banning things will cause someone to spend all the money elsewhere to try and get to that level.

I see myself getting a dog gearset at some point in my Honda. Same goes for upgrading to a 1.8L or 2.0L motor. However, at least on the motor, I need to realize I'm to the point where I can tie my right foot down and I can't go any faster in my measly 1.6L until I go further. But at least as far as a gearbox, being able to get those clutchless downshifts mid-corner without worrying about toasting syncros would be nice. But fuck, it's like the entire price of my car for a sequential... At least a drop in dog gearset is only $7,000 for my car :rollseyes:

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aj_johnson


Mine got her first broken arm last night. She wants a car like Pocky's (grandpa) which is a 997 911S. I'm gonna see if a go kart will suffice for now.

Aaaw, poor little dear. Hope it was not bad; she should heal pretty fast.

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frumby
Like I said earlier, hopefully the craziness doesn't flow south. Simple open rules are better. We need to worry less about 'even' competition and more about allowing the max number of competitors no matter what they are driving. A restrictor or displacement threshold doesn't stop someone from spending 50 grand on a car and having the fastest anyway. Since we all know that's the case, the only logical conclusion is that this has been done to pander to the factories. It should be obvious that they are fickle, and absolutely NOT the cornerstone of the sport.

You express my thoughts well, Jason; thanks. As I've said before, manufacturers will mess up series that is essentially for amateurs and then walk away a few years later. (And there will be encouragement from those who don't THINK of themselves as amateurs...and certianly from those few who realy field a pro car.) But, CARS has the right to do as they like. I hope it does not adversely effect things for too many people.

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starion887

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aj_johnson


Mine got her first broken arm last night. She wants a car like Pocky's (grandpa) which is a 997 911S. I'm gonna see if a go kart will suffice for now.

Aaaw, poor little dear. Hope it was not bad; she should heal pretty fast.

Yeah but still. Hardest thing I've known short of my Dad dying a bad fight with cancer is seeing my little girls crash and scare themselves....or my wife fight that benign tumor. Hell I've had 3 operations since March, I stumble around dragging bloody bandages behind, and only eventually realise what "this odd sensation " is (its called PAIN ya dumbshit<-----i actually did that last light "Oi wha's is strange sensation? OH! I rememeber! Its pain! --fawkin idjit)
But to see the girls hurt or scare themselves is worse than anything I've done to myself.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey thanks guys!

Now that iv'e had a few drinks in me. I'll make an ass out meself. I"m a little pissed as an american competitor who was planning on more than 50% of my events being in canada as a group 5 driver. I did send an email to the board and the response was that the raw speed of the cars is difficult to judge. And that were all the drivers of equal ability then of course a low caliber car, well driven, wouldn't take the podium.

Frankly, I was too pissed at being Patronized to respond with the vigor and venom that I felt that email deserved. Yes my events will likely be regionals but if raw speed is truly the key basis as to which these rules are enforced, then the 2wd regional guys will not be allowed to outperform the national guys by more than a season-- cutting out more than 50% of my planned rallies.

REALLLY???????

"IF ALL DRIVERS WERE THE SAME????" You have to be fucking kidding me. If all drivers were the same, then that would make this a one car class. Purely due to mechanical advantage. Fuck All as to what car that is, it wouldn't take long for that to appear. That is bullshit reasoning.

IF all the cars are the same we may as well sit here and worship loeb take over the wrc. For all intents and purposes those cars are closer than any classes we will ever dream up. And he walks away with them purely based on the fact that no two drivers will ever be equal.

No, when a driver is top of his class, he changes the oil and continues to win. The competitors drive the advancement of the sport through horsepower and suspension modifications. When such a champion starts to get beat he then assists in the advancement of the sport. These rules are a stagnation of automotive and rally advancement.

Pure and simple they require more money to beat someone with natural talent. And they require a person to sit inside a very tight box rather than think outside it to further their goals and advance the sport.


I may delete this tomorrow when I sober up. but till then have at me.

Good thing you got your letter in, as there is a CARS board meeting coming up to discuss the rule changes.

It'll be interesting to see how this goes down. I personally never had an issue with the way the current rules are, so I don't really care one way or another. The open class guys being at 2900 pounds I could live with though

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aj_johnson
And that were all the drivers of equal ability then of course a low caliber car, well driven, wouldn't take the podium.

I take issue with this statement.

It depends on the skill level. High HP cars are harder to drive. For most of the low to mid level amateurs we have, it's easier to get in a G2 car and go fast. You just pin the throttle for 95% of the stage. Get in a high HP car and you have to feather the throttle & worry about braking on a lot more corners.

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fliz

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aj_johnson
And that were all the drivers of equal ability then of course a low caliber car, well driven, wouldn't take the podium.

I take issue with this statement.

It depends on the skill level. High HP cars are harder to drive. For most of the low to mid level amateurs we have, it's easier to get in a G2 car and go fast. You just pin the throttle for 95% of the stage. Get in a high HP car and you have to feather the throttle & worry about braking on a lot more corners.

I took issue with it too. As it sits right now if the rules change for the regionals it cuts me out of canadian rallying. The reasons behind the changes are frankly bunk and force me to put the other driveshafts back in and go AWD open (which I do not have a license for) in antiquated machinery, or start all over with another car.

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fliz

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aj_johnson
And that were all the drivers of equal ability then of course a low caliber car, well driven, wouldn't take the podium.

I take issue with this statement.

It depends on the skill level. High HP cars are harder to drive. For most of the low to mid level amateurs we have, it's easier to get in a G2 car and go fast. You just pin the throttle for 95% of the stage. Get in a high HP car and you have to feather the throttle & worry about braking on a lot more corners.

Agreed! Eric Burmeister has even said he is faster with his Mazda 3 in a 300 hp tune than in a 450 hp tune.

With more power comes more variance and the ultimate goal of all sports is to minimize the variance and minimize the average. I guess what I am trying to say is, with a higher hp car you may have more straight line speed but that comes at expense of longer time spent on the brakes, higher chance of braking too much, and different cornering/handling characteristics that result from that weight transfer. There are plenty of people that would actually be slower in faster cars.

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Grant Hughes

How will the national guys and manufacturers feel about getting beat by regional guys, running faster cars? Sure, they aren't competing for the same goal, but if I were a manufacturer competing for a national championship, and a handful of regional competitors were seeded before me, I don't think I'd be happy about that. The idea that spectators would see regional guys coming down the road first isn't appealing either.

So then, what incentive to the events have to allow these faster cars for the regional? Unless, you stage them behind and leave enough gap that it isn't a problem?

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sureshot007
I were a manufacturer competing for a national championship, and a handful of regional competitors were seeded before me, I don't think I'd be happy about that.

I still don't understand that argument at all.

If I'm a manufacturer of some 25 hp gokart, I wouldn't expect to be competitive in a national rally championship. I certainly wouldn't expect the regulators of that championship to impose restrictions on everyone else just so that I could somehow suddenly become competitive.

The only manufacturers getting consistent TV coverage, and resulting advertising benefits from that, are manufacturers competing in the fastest Open Class AWD categories using highly modified versions of cars that bear only a passing resemblance to the normal road-going versions you can actually purchase from a dealer.

If some manufacturer is wanting to enter the rally market with a Production Class vehicle, great, go ahead and do it.

I'm just not buying the argument that some manufacturer is wanting to enter the 2wd Open Class, but is afraid of getting whupped by Gr5 cars. So let's hobble all the Gr5 cars to fix it so that an underpowered new manufacturer entry has a chance of winning. That seems wrong to me.

2wd is naturally self-regulating. More power in 2wd is certainly fun, but it's NOT a guaranteed winner. Look at Black River Stages this weekend. The overall winner, beating all of the Gr5 cars, even all the 4WD entries, was Kevin Turner / Matthew Rhoads in a 2.2 litre normally aspirated FWD Subaru. How cool is that?

If some new manufacturer of an underpowered car is looking to enter rallying, the very BEST thing they could do is hire an accomplished driver to show off the abilities of their car. Please, reward some deserving driver worthy of a sponsored ride!

When someone like Higgins, l'Estage, Pastrana, or Block wins a rally (I know it's not true, but) it's always tempting to think it's merely a result of their driving such superior cars. Surely even I could win if only I had a a half million dollars to spend on a car like that. (not)

Instead look at memorable performances by the likes of Frank Sprongl in a lowly Suzuki Swift. Look at what Chris Duplessis did for years in his Golf, and now in a Fiesta. Look at what Kevin Turner did this weekend in his 2wd N/A Subaru. It is waaaaaay more impressive to win in an "underpowered" 2wd car like this against all those supposedly superior Gr5 and OpenClass cars.

People notice such performances. People start thinking, gee whiz, even I can afford to buy a Swift, Golf, 2wd Subaru, or whatever and go rallying with it.

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sureshot007
How will the national guys and manufacturers feel about getting beat by regional guys, running faster cars? Sure, they aren't competing for the same goal, but if I were a manufacturer competing for a national championship, and a handful of regional competitors were seeded before me, I don't think I'd be happy about that. The idea that spectators would see regional guys coming down the road first isn't appealing either.

So then, what incentive to the events have to allow these faster cars for the regional? Unless, you stage them behind and leave enough gap that it isn't a problem?

Manufacturers don't give a shit about the ACTUAL on stage results or appearances. The actual at event ROI is WAY less than the pictures and claims that can be made afterward. I mean, Verena Mei is the Rally America Spec B champion in her 2012 Ford Fiesta Spec B.
Also see Mike Halley's VW Golf or whoever had it before him or whatever. Etc.

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Grant Hughes

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Ferdinand

I'm just not buying the argument that some manufacturer is wanting to enter the 2wd Open Class, but is afraid of getting whupped by Gr5 cars. So let's hobble all the Gr5 cars to fix it so that an underpowered new manufacturer entry has a chance of winning. That seems wrong to me.

It's not the reasoning, unless you like to wear tinfoil hats.

But it was definitely a CONSIDERATION when proposing to do a new ruleset. Not a large one, but from my understanding, the thought was there.