Quote
DaveK
... it looks like Big White 2012 could be the last time the car would be legal to run north of the border.

The sky isn't falling, at least not yet.
As I've said, there is nothing saying the regional championship will follow the national class changes. (There is prescedent for that happening but there is also prescedent for the region using a different class structure.)
Enter Big White, or show up and volunteer, and make sure your thoughts are heard.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
DaveK
Guess all you BMW guys will need to go start buying up all the S14 motors you can find. So much for making rally "cheaper." Also of note is that there no longer appears to be a minimum weight for the 2wd classes which should also work wonders for cost containment at the pointy end of the field.

Guess I won't be bolting that blower to my S50 afterall....ahhh, who the f am I kidding, I'll probably be lucky to get around to it by 2015...thought it looks like Big White 2012 could be the last time the car would be legal to run north of the border.

Dave

Yeah the incredibly dumb rule in Rarry Amelica that allows if you want a full R3 or old F2 n.a car with 240 bhp no questions asked yet prohibits a guy from using a stock volvo with 130 has been bad enough.

Now this.

I said just today to a guy we found him a cheap 2,3 turbo car how the option of building a car with a whatever shape 2300 turbo is so nice cause "You don't have to spend a pile of dough coming to me to build an interim motor of a wicked n.a. thing, you just run the stock everything and just worry about cage, suspenders and strength and it'll be fun enough"

great.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison

Quote
DaveK
... it looks like Big White 2012 could be the last time the car would be legal to run north of the border.

The sky isn't falling, at least not yet.
As I've said, there is nothing saying the regional championship will follow the national class changes. (There is prescedent for that happening but there is also prescedent for the region using a different class structure.)
Enter Big White, or show up and volunteer, and make sure your thoughts are heard.

Its the interwebz - the sky IS always falling.

I've actually been kicking around the idea of converting the Evo to Open Light to go run some snow events and sticking the radiator in the back so I can stuff the car properly into a snow bank and not overheat. Of course that's about as likely as me showing up to Big White with a supercharged m-powered compact and 1wd...but I do have some A034s now!

Dave

Quote
Morison

Quote
DaveK
... it looks like Big White 2012 could be the last time the car would be legal to run north of the border.

The sky isn't falling, at least not yet.
As I've said, there is nothing saying the regional championship will follow the national class changes. (There is prescedent for that happening but there is also prescedent for the region using a different class structure.)
Enter Big White, or show up and volunteer, and make sure your thoughts are heard.

More directly:
The question is always:
*What problem is the 32mm restrictor rule in Group 5 cooked up to solve?

*Where was the discussions about inventing a rule saddling traction limited group 5 cars with a restrictor?

*And the most important: are these rules already cast in stone?
*And will the deciders decide to dig their heels in at this point just to dig their heels in?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
The question is always:

The bigger problem than the restrictor is the engine displacement limits - they just don't seem to make sense given the available 10-25 year old cars that are being raced by privateers. But maybe that doesn't matter because of regional vs. national entries.

Dave

Quote
john vanlandingham
What problem is the 32mm restrictor rule in group 5 cooked up to solve?

Equalising the potential power with formerly Gr2 cars.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Where was the discussions aboit inventing a rule saddling traction limited group 5 cars with a restrictor?

In a working committee that spent more than three years to bring together this class structure. The committee included a wide range of members and also looked outside the core group for expertise when needed.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And the most important: are these rules already cast in stone? And will the deciders decide tyo dig their heels in at this point just to dig their heels in?

The rules have been voted on and passed by the CARS Board of Directors after an insane amount of discussion even after the committee reccomendations were recieved. The new classes are effective Jan 1, 2013. (I thought it said that somewhere in the bulletin)
That said, the 'rule change procedure' is included in the rule book and there is a process for rule changes being made at any time. The board is made up of people elected to their positions so any 'digging heels in,' without good reason, is likely to shorten that person's time on the board.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Stinks of politics and deal making.

Knowing the key players in this as well as I do, I can assure you that is completely baseless. No politics, no deal making whatsoever.

Quote
john vanlandingham
and that the faulty "logic" behind this absurd conclusion doesn't spread.

How would you suggest we best level the playing field between G2 and G5?
I can assure you this was discussed at length both at committee and at the CARS Board level.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
john vanlandingham
More directly:

Patience... I was typing the above answere as you reitterated the qestions, which were more than direct enough to start with.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I can understand having less classes, but these ones don't really make sense. Rally America's Three class system makes much more sense.

Are they worried the threat of a grass roots high displacment 2wd car will scare off hypothetical factory teams? They might as well put an age limit on cars that run the national series...

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
More directly:

Patience... I was typing the above answere as you reitterated the qestions, which were more than direct enough to start with.

And the heel digging begins.

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Jason McDaniel

edit*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 06:58PM by HiTempguy.

If this applies to only the nationals only I am okay with it. Ricky Rallyist will not likely have the cheddar to run a full national series regardless. This will effect the top dollars guys the most, but they most likely have the money to either move up in class or dumb down their current spec. However if it does trickle down to the regional guys ( it will ) then we will just have to cheat like/better than the pros.
If you really want to slow the cars down mandate a spec tire for the series, IE " The only tires to be run may only be pursed at wal-mart (in stock only) on the way to the event".
No need to beat Keith up on this, i think its cool he is taking it in stride online when we all know damn well he does not have to.

Quote
modernbeat
And the heel digging begins.

Ignoring the fact I don'thave a vote on the CARS board. How is that in any way heel digging?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
BJosephD
If you really want to slow the cars down mandate a spec tire for the series, IE " The only tires to be run may only be pursed at wal-mart (in stock only) on the way to the event".

Using a tire spec to slow down cars was looked at and quickly discounted.
It was felt that limiting the traction of the only contact of the car with the road would make the cars less safe, which goes against what the rules were trying to do.

Similarly, a higher minimum weight for G5 was discounted for a similar reason. A heavier car wants to turn less and will eat more brakes and carry more momentum into whatever it hits, making it less safe from the start.

Quote
BJosephD
No need to beat Keith up on this, i think its cool he is taking it in stride online when we all know damn well he does not have to.

Unless there is another thread I don't know about... I haven't seen anything that I would take as 'beating up' on me. The rules, sure. The process, which included an open round table with competitors at a CARS AGM/Awards Banquet, sure, CARS and how sanctioning bodies typically operate, sure.
None of those are me. And the tone of the discussion so far is relatively tame for Anarchy.
I'm also not defending the rules as much as I am defending the process, which includes a process for changes to be made. In this case I'm just a messenger, letting people know when information is available.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

See? This is the benefit of having a 1.8l ancient rally car with the horsepower of my cat, even if it does have the dreaded T attached to the power plant. None of this affects me in the slightest. There are plusses to running at the back of the pack... eventually. And my Peltor G78 is still legal up in cheeseland for a while too.

Let me see if I understand this one... So this is just for the National level and the regions do not have to buy in... So if I were start building my new car today (or in 3 weeks) to a Prod 4WD I would most likely fall into the Open class in the regional events unless I build my car to Production GT where I would still hit Prod 4WD in the Nationals...

How does this make things better for me? So if I build to Prod GT in Ontario when I enter a national event I can potentially be in Prod 4WD with cars that run in Ontario in an open class but the that event we are all the same? What if I only enter the regional portion of a National event am I Prod 4WD or Prod GT?

I understand that region have the options do what they want for their events but for sake of the above scenarios how can that adopt it without causing this kind of issue...


Derek

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