Hmmm. I'm interested (in an intellectual basis, no axe to grind) on how the 2wd displacements came about. It seems like a solution in search of a problem from where I sit, but what do I know. No Open Light equivalent, or did that just never catch on up there?

Out of curiousity, how are rotaries classed; 1.5x, 1.8x, something like that?

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mekilljoydammit
Hmmm. I'm interested (in an intellectual basis, no axe to grind) on how the 2wd displacements came about. It seems like a solution in search of a problem from where I sit, but what do I know. No Open Light equivalent, or did that just never catch on up there?

Out of curiousity, how are rotaries classed; 1.5x, 1.8x, something like that?

I was wondering the same thing. Is there any displacement modifiers for 2wd open? I find it odd that you can run a 2.0T, but are limited to a 2.5 NA. A correctly built 2.0T, say an SR20DET, can easily, and reliably make 300+ whp. You could flog that all day long and have a blast. Getting a NA 2.5 to get to that point, while possible, it would be fantastically cost prohibitive, and it would not be nearly as reliable.

With my current setup, I could run a national event, but would have little to no chance of being truly competitive. Guys like Will and Chris who are running here would scrub the floor with me based both on drivers skill, and vehicle ability.

I would think that a cc limit of at least 3000 would make a lot more sense, giving NA cars the chance to compete on more common ground.

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I Seppanen, Car #240

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If this applies to only the nationals only I am okay with it. Ricky Rallyist will not likely have the cheddar to run a full national series regardless.

Traditionally in some parts of the USA---the NE 1/4---which happens to be where mostt of the population and most of the ralliest now are---and in Canadian events, organisers have, when running a concurrent "National "
and "Regional" or "club" or "divisional" , they have cynically shortened the distance the "Club" guys run.
There are a variety of reasons and all I have heard are all utter, bald lies and bullshit.
The most common lie and one that is the "party line" knee jerk answer vomited up just to get rid of the question is INVARIABLY siad virtually verbatim" Well (pause for effect...I'm serious they all have not just the same words but the same cadence and inflection) you see, most club guys cars aren't really prepared to the same standards as the "Pros" so they really don't want to go the same distance as the "Biiiiig boys".
Bullshit, since 1984 I have consistantly asked at the end of events out here where we don't cheat us clubbies out of milage "hey! Guys! We have the route books---who's ready for another loop?"
100% answer--if the car still runs----"I do! lets do it"
I asked at the Nationals I went to at Maine Summer and Winter 95, Summer 96, STPR 95, Rally Pierce Neige 96, Rally Quebec 96, Baie de Chaleurs 96, and Lake Superior 95.
100% of all those I asked said hell yeah.

IF cluibbies got to go full distance, then its still stupid.

But I say its a cynical reasoning to drive more people into entering the significantly higher cost "national".. STPR used to run their "rally school" a bit in front of the National and pooof! they had the overwhelming majority enter the National---imagine that.

There should be nothing differnt in the car spec between "National" and "Club", the only thing differences do is make it impossible to do what we do anyways----compare times with "the BIIiiiiiiiiiiG Boys"---and giggle at the real overall placings.

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This will effect the top dollars guys the most,

Uh no, big dollar guys will just do what they must, its just money.

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If you really want to slow the cars down mandate a spec tire for the series, IE " The only tires to be run may only be pursed at wal-mart (in stock only) on the way to the event".

The alleged goal is to "even out the performance", and as the traditionally fastest guys in 2wd are guys with hotter n.a. Gr2 cars, this accomplishes nothing, except cost money for nothing.

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No need to beat Keith up on this, i think its cool he is taking it in stride online when we all know damn well he does not have to.

Nobody is beating up poor widdle Keefy, just trying to figure out HOW and WHY such an absurd and un-needed idea reached the print stage when evidently this is a surprise to most.

I wonder if our friend Martin Walter heard a peep of this? He's maybe the most active Gp5 guy in Canada.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 09:36PM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham


I wonder if our friend Martin Walter heard a peep of this? He's maybe the most active Gp5 guy in Canada.

If I were him, I would be jumping for joy. He is 2wd, 2.0 Turbo. He fits perfectly into the new rules. He may very well have been one of the people "in" on the discussions lol. Hedging his bets as it were.

Im not really mad about it myself. I also fit into the rules, though not so perfectly. If I could keep the darn thing on the road, I think I could nuzzle out a little space for myself in the upper 3rd of the 2wd field. Hey a guy can dream right?

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I Seppanen, Car #240

Talking points: (I know Keith's caveat about the forums NOT being directed to the people in charge... this is a question for us commoners.

Will ALS be allowed under the 4wd Production?

Apparently 2wd Open has no minimum weight?

Apparently everyone in a Subaru and Mitsu has to pull out their diff controllers (according to Electronic controls section, this one has always confused me.)

No more adjusted displacement at all?

"Tolerances" is in reference to compression ratios?

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

I suppose someone could always destroke one of those Hayabusa V8s a smidge and cram it into a Swift or something... that wouldn't cost much, right?

A LeMons racing I will go, a LeMons racing I will go, I don't enjoy Rally America events, and the Canadian classes say no.

(Anders, NASA events near me have, with the exception of one, ALWAYS been on weekends with non-negotiable family stuff I've had to attend...)

Man, we need some Folksrace in the US so I can get my stupid driving fix more than twice a year at the NE LeMons events...

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

The main underlying concerns identified by the committee include low entry in many of the current classes, as well as the ever-increasing cost of competition, particularly in Open class. The committee looked into the reasons behind this and determined that the complexity and restrictions, most notably in the production classes, was a significant factor. The basic concept behind the new rules is to remove many of these restrictions and simplify the ability to build affordable cars for competition.

Unless I am missing something, Nothing has made Open class any more affordable. Actually this straight up ignores the "problem" of cars going too fast... The only cars that are going too fast are Antoine, Pat and Leo. Max, Hardy, Ugo etc are all in the "safe" zone.

I would have thought that the top priority to keep costs down would be to align the classes across the boarder. As it looks to me the would be pool of cars available to purchase just got smaller north of the border. Plus to reduce cost and increase the number of new competitors from both sides of the border, why would we choose to adopt rules that close the doors on allot of cars south of the border?

Also, a 32mm restrictor on a heavier 4wd car? WHY? not only does this not make since, any SP cars south of the border would have to re-tune for a 32mm or run a car in Open (like we are) that is not really an Open car.

Put a 32mm on the Open cars, and allow 34mm on the 4wd Production cars. THAT slows down the cars that go too fast, and allows more fun for us lugging the weight around the stages.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 10:13PM by zerodegreec.

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Morison

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modernbeat
And the heel digging begins.

Ignoring the fact I don'thave a vote on the CARS board. How is that in any way heel digging?

Becoming indignant at questions suggests that he feels the questions shouldn't be asked and his pat answers should be enough to defend them against anything. It also suggests that this is a done-deal and that the questions are superfulous. The attitude that "we worked hard on this and you shouldn't question it" tells me that they are already dug in.

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Jason McDaniel

2.5 for turbo cars...34 restrictor, irregardless of drivetrain. 3.0 for NA cars. Too many 34 restrictors and tuning knowledge available to make anything else the standard. Make the published winning class RA rules SP class...forget the Open AWD . Forget any Production BS for 2wd unless 3 manufactures commit in writing to a 3 or 4 year support program.

So...acknowledge 2wd open and AWD SP . Slow the front down, stop the insane escalation that Ford and Subaru are waging. We're losing stages and maybe events because a couple cars are on a level way beyond the 98% of the people who actually make an event.

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the announcement
The main underlying concerns identified by the committee include low entry in many of the current classes, as well as the ever-increasing cost of competition, particularly in Open class. The committee looked into the reasons behind this and determined that the complexity and restrictions, most notably in the production classes, was a significant factor. The basic concept behind the new rules is to remove many of these restrictions and simplify the ability to build affordable cars for competition.

Weird. If complexity reduction was a big factor (and whether it is or isn't, in Canada, would probably have to be figured out elsewhere) it would seem that getting rid of production altogether would be the way to go. The way I think I read it, with one P class allowing update/backdate, and the other P class not, seems pretty complicated. All open would probably removed 70% of the car rules. Production classes are always wordy.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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mekilljoydammit
Out of curiousity, how are rotaries classed; 1.5x, 1.8x, something like that?

From the bulletin:
"Rotary engines are restricted to twin rotors. Additional porting is not permitted
Same language in all classes.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 11:09PM by Morison.

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Ian S
I was wondering the same thing. Is there any displacement modifiers for 2wd open? I find it odd that you can run a 2.0T, but are limited to a 2.5 NA. A correctly built 2.0T, say an SR20DET, can easily, and reliably make 300+ whp. You could flog that all day long and have a blast. Getting a NA 2.5 to get to that point, while possible, it would be fantastically cost prohibitive, and it would not be nearly as reliable.

Don't forget the part where 2wd turbo cars need to run restrictors now too, so that doesn't mean 300 easy HP anymore. At the pointy end of the field, sure a 300 hp car is doable.

Dave

Maple syrup and molson ice do not mix.....what a joke. production 2wd...guh and a RESTRICTOR on a 2.0L w/2wd? Who the hell is putting down enough power and driving fast enough to challenge the top cars require a restrictor?

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

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zerodegreec
Will ALS be allowed under the 4wd Production?

12.8.8 - ECU is free. So ALS would be allowed. (Just as it is presently in PGT)

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zerodegreec
Apparently 2wd Open has no minimum weight?

Apparently. Same with Prod 2WD. Worth asking for a claridication since there what should be 12.6.7 is absent all together.

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zerodegreec
Apparently everyone in a Subaru and Mitsu has to pull out their diff controllers (according to Electronic controls section, this one has always confused me.)

Assuming 12.8.6 - it only says no electronic controls for front or rear diff. The centre diffs have electronic controls from the factory and are OK and must stay OEM. If the car came with electronic controls for front or rear diffs from the factory I think you could probably plead your case to CARS to have them allowed. (if they remain OEM)
Interestingly, factory paddle shifters were discussed and are disallowed by this rule.

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zerodegreec
No more adjusted displacement at all?

Correct.

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zerodegreec
"Tolerances" is in reference to compression ratios?

12.8.1.3?
It referrs to any restricted OEM part that needs machining on the car.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.