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DaveK
Don't forget the part where 2wd turbo cars need to run restrictors now too, so that doesn't mean 300 easy HP anymore. At the pointy end of the field, sure a 300 hp car is doable.

Dave

I forgot about that little tidbit.

That makes things a little more interesting, especially if it was a 32mm restrictor.

Then that just leaves driver talent as the main deciding factor.

Back to the racing video games I go!!

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

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Ian S
That makes things a little more interesting, especially if it was a 32mm restrictor.

It is 32mm

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Ian S
Then that just leaves driver talent as the main deciding factor.

Hmmm. I wonder if they thought of that?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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zerodegreec
Apparently everyone in a Subaru and Mitsu has to pull out their diff controllers (according to Electronic controls section, this one has always confused me.)

Assuming 12.8.6 - it only says no electronic controls for front or rear diff. The centre diffs have electronic controls from the factory and are OK and must stay OEM. If the car came with electronic controls for front or rear diffs from the factory I think you could probably plead your case to CARS to have them allowed. (if they remain OEM)
Interestingly, factory paddle shifters were discussed and are disallowed by this rule.

/tinfoil hat on/

So, what I'm reading is that Subaru purchased the right to allow 2.5L engines, but Mitsubishi didn't pony up enough that their top of the line car could be used in competition. The Evo MR uses electronic controls in the center & rear diffs and is available with a twin-clutch gearbox.

Dave

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modernbeat
Becoming indignant at questions suggests that he feels the questions shouldn't be asked and his pat answers should be enough to defend them against anything.

OK, you're not communicating very well. Who is 'he.'
If you're talking about me, which I think you are then you need to go back and have a look at the thread a bit closer.
John asked a series of questions, and then asked them again when I was in the middle of typing out the answers to his first post. I was just poking fun, in a kind and gentle way, at what seemed to be a slightly impatient re-asking of reasonable questions.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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DaveK
... it looks like Big White 2012 could be the last time the car would be legal to run north of the border.

The sky isn't falling, at least not yet.
As I've said, there is nothing saying the regional championship will follow the national class changes. (There is prescedent for that happening but there is also prescedent for the region using a different class structure.)
Enter Big White, or show up and volunteer, and make sure your thoughts are heard.

Can our thoughts be heard even if we can't make it up to Big White this year? Seems like there are quite a few thoughts voiced here, and I would add mine in the seeming consensus that these rules are detrimental to many of us who might otherwise like to compete up there.

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zerodegreec
Also, a 32mm restrictor on a heavier 4wd car? WHY? not only does this not make since, any SP cars south of the border would have to re-tune for a 32mm or run a car in Open (like we are) that is not really an Open car.

PGT is already a 32mm restrictor and SP cars are already pushed into open when (if) they come north.
The bulletin already hints that 32mm could be the future for all forced induction cars.

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zerodegreec
Put a 32mm on the Open cars, and allow 34mm on the 4wd Production cars. THAT slows down the cars that go too fast, and allows more fun for us lugging the weight around the stages.

You can have plenty of fun on a 32mm restrictor.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 11:55PM by Morison.

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Morison

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zerodegreec
Also, a 32mm restrictor on a heavier 4wd car? WHY? not only does this not make since, any SP cars south of the border would have to re-tune for a 32mm or run a car in Open (like we are) that is not really an Open car.

PGT is already a 32mm restrictor and SP cars are already pushed into open when (if) they come north.
The bulletin already hints that 32mm could be the future for all forced induction cars.

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zerodegreec
Put a 32mm on the Open cars, and allow 34mm on the 4wd Production cars. THAT slows down the cars that go too fast, and allows more fun for us lugging the weight around the stages.

You can have plenty of fun on a 32mm restrictor.

Yes I know Keith, but how many PGT cars do we have??? its in the same place as Gr5 is/was. It was easier/cheaper for people to just jump up to Open rather than stay in PGT. SP seems to have gained traction in the US and its a nice mix for people that want to run production cars. So PGT is hurting and we make rules that are in line with what PGT was doing wrong???

---

Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

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Slowwpoke
Can our thoughts be heard even if we can't make it up to Big White this year? Seems like there are quite a few thoughts voiced here, and I would add mine in the seeming consensus that these rules are detrimental to many of us who might otherwise like to compete up there.

It would never hurt to contact CARS and let them know your thoughts. The region director closest to you (Rally Pacific Motorsports) or the Technical Director would both be good points of contact.

http://carsrally.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&view=category&catid=0&Itemid=40&lang=en

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
You can have plenty of fun on a 32mm restrictor.

Lol, that sounds like being put in a crib and being told to be quiet.

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Morison

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Ian S
That makes things a little more interesting, especially if it was a 32mm restrictor.

It is 32mm

Yes, I saw that, the was was supposed to be an is.

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

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zerodegreec
Yes I know Keith, but how many PGT cars do we have??? its in the same place as Gr5 is/was. It was easier/cheaper for people to just jump up to Open rather than stay in PGT. SP seems to have gained traction in the US and its a nice mix for people that want to run production cars. So PGT is hurting and we make rules that are in line with what PGT was doing wrong???

The biggest advantage Prod AWD has is that probably over half of the cars now forced into open class for very poor reasons may be as little as replacing lexan with OEM glass away from being Prod AWD legal. At national events, even moreso in the east, the majority of the field are in open class cars that couldn't possibly compete with the leding edge of the class (talking car to car, not driver to driver) They simply aren't the same class of car. In many cases it is a matter of having the 'wrong,' but still stock, driveline in the shell.
SP came into existance with no consultation with CARS as a unilateral move by RA and the class has never fit well under our rules. This hasn't changed with these rules.
Again, with the view to moving to 32 across the board, would it have been wise to move to 34 for PAWD for one year?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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modernbeat
Becoming indignant at questions suggests that he feels the questions shouldn't be asked and his pat answers should be enough to defend them against anything.

OK, you're not communicating very well. Who is 'he.'
If you're talking about me, which I think you are then you need to go back and have a look at the thread a bit closer.
John asked a series of questions, and then asked them again when I was in the middle of typing out the answers to his first post. I was just poking fun, in a kind and gentle way, at what seemed to be a slightly impatient re-asking of reasonable questions.

Fuck your poking fun. You smug twerp. You're poking fun at the obsoleting piles of cars which more and more guys are realising are a fine way to have lots of fun for lowest outlay AND not be forced to build specific motors.

I owuld like to know the names of all those on the committee who voted for this so I can get this voodoo Doctor I know to send them something that will cause them to waste an amount of money equal to what their ill advised, and frankly ignorant rules have caused.

You have no idea in your smug little fucking Albertan fanatsy land how many people I have pushed hard to go up and do Canadian---that is BC events. Gone in one silly, thoughtless rule change.

Tell your buddies they should be proud.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Morison

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zerodegreec
Yes I know Keith, but how many PGT cars do we have??? its in the same place as Gr5 is/was. It was easier/cheaper for people to just jump up to Open rather than stay in PGT. SP seems to have gained traction in the US and its a nice mix for people that want to run production cars. So PGT is hurting and we make rules that are in line with what PGT was doing wrong???

The biggest advantage Prod AWD has is that probably over half of the cars now forced into open class for very poor reasons may be as little as replacing lexan with OEM glass away from being Prod AWD legal. At national events, even moreso in the east, the majority of the field are in open class cars that couldn't possibly compete with the leding edge of the class (talking car to car, not driver to driver) They simply aren't the same class of car. In many cases it is a matter of having the 'wrong,' but still stock, driveline in the shell.
SP came into existance with no consultation with CARS as a unilateral move by RA and the class has never fit well under our rules. This hasn't changed with these rules.
Again, with the view to moving to 32 across the board, would it have been wise to move to 34 for PAWD for one year?

Like you just said, Half the cars are pushed into open for very poor reasons. Thus they are all tuned and running 34mm. Why not let them run for another year with 34mm. And while we are at it, why wait for a year to make the teams with the big money go to a 32mm? Oh I see, lets reduce the costs for the teams that can most afford it. THAT makes since. Kind of like tax cuts for the top 1%

---

Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

What is the reasoning for getting the G2 and G5 cars closer in performance? What is the point of G2 and G5 then?

The other issue I would be concerned with is Sanction insurance for regional events/competitors. If CARS is the sanctioning body, and the events run under a CARS supplied insurance program, then whats to stop the insurance company from denying to insure a regional unless their classes are in line with what CARS recomends.

What the claim of these new rules, and what they actually accomplish seem to me to be different.

Fuel is the easiest way to slow down open cars. Bullshit that "station to station fuel is to inconsistent" That should be the teams responsability to determine what brand they want to run. Don't tune a car without a window for fuel octane. Modern pump fuel is very consistent.

edit*

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
Stinks of politics and deal making.

Knowing the key players in this as well as I do, I can assure you that is completely baseless. No politics, no deal making whatsoever.

Um... hmm... I'd disagree Keith.

Tom specifically stated that part of the impetus behind these rule changes was to entice more manufacturers to potentially compete in the CRC. That in and of itself, IMO, is what John is referring to as politics (an agenda). Which isn't a bad thing. I mean, I'll provide anyone that asks the exact discussion points we had at the agm at the beginning of the year. I remember quite well the conversations that were had, as I wasn't very happy with them. I also have the papers.

[official part of post]Keith has answered all of your questions in an excellent manner, as he always does. I will say that, as president of RallyWest (this is me speaking officially), I would be STRONGLY against any regional rule changes at this time. I expressed my disappointment to Keith about what I consider rapid rule changes (3 months for 2wd competitors to regroup/change their cars is a bit of a stretch). [/official part of post]

Having said that, currently, these rule changes affect approximately zero participants in the US, and afaik, no one in Western Canada if they were brought into immediate effect. In fact, they wouldn't affect anyone all the way back to (and including) 2010 regionally. It is impossible for an organization to operate on what-ifs. While I feel for Dave, the likelihood of him competing at BigWhite (as he himself states) is small at best. You'd think with great events and cheap entry fees so close such as Mountain Trials, PFR, and BigWhite we'd see a ton of PNW competitors in BC regionals... but we don't. I don't know why that is. But to suggest that NATIONALLY, CARS bases its rules off of nonexistent competitors, it won't fly and it shouldn't.

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sidewaez
Are they worried the threat of a grass roots high displacment 2wd car will scare off hypothetical factory teams? They might as well put an age limit on cars that run the national series...

If you think that these conversations don't come up, you'd be mistaken. CARS (and Keith specifically) work extremely hard at promoting rallying and trying to obtain backing for the championship. The national series does not have the same directive as the regional based series. If you had to knock out a couple of national entries per event to gain a major sponsor/factory backed team, would you? Especially if that team could still compete at the same event regionally? If my goal was to promote a national series worthy of TV broadcast, I'd seriously consider it. But I'm not in that position to make that call. What I am saying here is put yourself in their shoes, with their mandate, and ask those questions to yourself.

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john vanlandingham
And the most important: are these rules already cast in stone? And will the deciders decide tyo dig their heels in at this point just to dig their heels in?

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keith
The rules have been voted on and passed by the CARS Board of Directors after an insane amount of discussion even after the committee recommendations were received. The new classes are effective Jan 1, 2013. (I thought it said that somewhere in the bulletin)
That said, the 'rule change procedure' is included in the rule book and there is a process for rule changes being made at any time. The board is made up of people elected to their positions so any 'digging heels in,' without good reason, is likely to shorten that person's time on the board.

John, basically, the rules are set as far as I can tell with the way previous rules have gone with CARS. A LARGE majority of competitors making enough noise unanimously could/would change this. When it comes to CARS taking feedback, look at the Peltor G78 incident (thanks to Shawn Bishop, we can now run these rally helmets still and they are a great price)!

Heels get dug in all the time, but that comes with managing any form of organization. At some point, you just have to do it. The rules do make sense, as practically no one in Western Canada is building any of the cars that are being "disallowed" except for Kevin, which doesn't matter, as currently (and hopefully for the foreseeable future), the regional rules aren't changing, as I've already stated.

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Morison

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modernbeat
And the heel digging begins.

Ignoring the fact I don'thave a vote on the CARS board. How is that in any way heel digging?

I'd wager that your opinion is worth the equivalent of a vote Keith. To say that the people on the board are not aware of your opinion is (in my opinion ) a stretch.

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derekvincent
So if I build to Prod GT in Ontario when I enter a national event I can potentially be in Prod 4WD with cars that run in Ontario in an open class but the that event we are all the same?

That sounds about right to me if I understand your wording. Realistically, this would probably be for a season (or not at all depending on your specific regions viewpoint) as the crossover to the new rules was completed. As Keith mentioned, it is best to voice your opinion to your elected regional board members!

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JVL
The most common lie and one that is the "party line" knee jerk answer vomited up just to get rid of the question is INVARIABLY siad virtually verbatim" Well (pause for effect...I'm serious they all have not just the same words but the same cadence and inflection) you see, most club guys cars aren't really prepared to the same standards as the "Pros" so they really don't want to go the same distance as the "Biiiiig boys".

CARS limits regional event lengths. I don't know if it can be skirted, but typically our nationals have "multiple" regionals (with one counting in the regional series championship) that can be entered at the more inexpensive regional only price. I know we like to look at this forum in a North American sense, but there are differences sometimes

As for Martin, I thought he had a turbocharged 2.4L, but I may (am?) mistaken it sounds like.

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zerodegreec
Apparently everyone in a Subaru and Mitsu has to pull out their diff controllers (according to Electronic controls section, this one has always confused me.)

Centre diff doesn't count (as Keith pointed out). Evo owners remove the active rear diff typically anyways, which is an open mod. No issue.

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zerodegreec

Unless I am missing something, Nothing has made Open class any more affordable. Actually this straight up ignores the "problem" of cars going too fast... The only cars that are going too fast are Antoine, Pat and Leo. Max, Hardy, Ugo etc are all in the "safe" zone.

I would have thought that the top priority to keep costs down would be to align the classes across the boarder. As it looks to me the would be pool of cars available to purchase just got smaller north of the border. Plus to reduce cost and increase the number of new competitors from both sides of the border, why would we choose to adopt rules that close the doors on allot of cars south of the border?

but how many PGT cars do we have?

The weight deal is huge for one (affordibility-wise). At some point, you have to take into consideration that those who want to win will always spend metric-craptons of money. Typically, those people will also (hopefully) have developed the skills necessary to win... which realistically, are also currently Antoine, Pat, and (working on it) Leo. It's not money that is holding everyone back...

I'm confused about your restrictor talk. Restrictor sizes haven't changed, which means OUR PGT guys aren't screwed. The cross border competiters are less than the number of our own competitors, so if you have to appease one group... I am willing to bet that if (when?) CARS switches to 32mm's will be if (when?) RA switches. (as a small dig, I thought this was all about fun anyways, so as long as you can run, why does it matter Bryan? )

PGT competitors with the new rules for 2012? 6 in Western Canada, who have also competed at both events so far. 6 in 2011, and 9 in 2010. About 5-6 PGT competitors out east (in Ontario anyways) over the past couple years as well. And if 32mm restrictors are coming soon for all, why move cars up to 34mm for ONE year and then move them back down the next? Has a single SP car from the US competed in the CRC this year (since brake mods were allowed to fit 15's)?

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modernbeat
It also suggests that this is a done-deal and that the questions are superfulous.

It is a done deal, the rules are now officially the rules. The discussing/questions were already had. As I pointed out earlier, a vast majority of competitors would basically have to strike to change things.

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Anders Green
Weird. If complexity reduction was a big factor (and whether it is or isn't, in Canada, would probably have to be figured out elsewhere) it would seem that getting rid of production altogether would be the way to go. The way I think I read it, with one P class allowing update/backdate, and the other P class not, seems pretty complicated. All open would probably removed 70% of the car rules. Production classes are always wordy.

And yet, every race series seems to have them... wierd eh? Maybe it's because manufacturers like production classes?