Noob wants to fabricate. Which end do you hold?

I know how I should do this, I should go to the tech school nearby, pay the $600/semester, and learn to weld, and metal work. I've looked at the schedule, the classes move slow and to finish the class sequence it would take over a year. I'm young so therefore I'm impatient and full of myself so I think I can do it myself.

Is it rationale for me to go out, buy a TIG welder, grab a textbook, and just start learning on my own? I'd love to start with building a steel work table and then eventually to body fabrication and a cage. MIG is where you're supposed to start but if I'm going to have to TIG weld the cage and such, why not start with it right away? (I also don't want to have to buy a welder, sell it, and then get a new one).

I hate the idea of dropping my car off at the shop. It costs more money, I don't want to depend on other people, I don't trust most shops, and it takes the fun away from me. I love working on cars even though I am usually swearing at them.

Also, there is a running 1991 volvo 240 nearby for $650 OBO and a $400 project xratty so I'm thinking I'd like to learn to weld so I can justify a buying one of them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2013 10:51AM by bp944.

What makes you think you have to TIG a cage?

It would be a good idea if you read the rule book first.

The answer to your question is no.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

General rule of thumb:
Formula style racecar-TIG weld everything, heat treat it, and make replacements for when they fail.
Rally Car- MIG weld the crap out of everything, call it a day, and go drive.
(I'm still working on the go driving part....)

[Long rant on MIG and TIG welding erased for more practical advice]

Practical Advice: Save the $2-4k you would be spending on a decent USED TIG welder. Buy an already logbooked, and prep'd rally car. Go race. There are deals out there on used cars. Mine was not one of them.

No to which question? Tig vs MIG, fabricating, or buying a 240. Could you also tell me why?

I did look through the rule book but I didn't mention anything about an unprofessional welding a cage. There are a lot of specifications on how to build it but nothing I saw about why I couldn't do it.

I should just save up for an already prepped rally car. Part of me still feels like building it would be half the fun though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2013 11:51AM by bp944.

Also, you CAN learn a lot more by just practicing welding than going to a school.
My father owns a small fab/machine shop. Every welder he has ever hired with a 2yr welding certificate has been garbage (except one female). I have never taken a class on welding and I can hold my own against most. People ask me how I got so good at welding, my response has always been, "Practice, lots and lots of practice."

Also, really good resource for quick questions if you decide to buy a welder: welding tips & tricks



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2013 12:25PM by Robert Culbertson.

I think the "No" was to going out and dropping $2k+ on a welder, and teaching yourself how to weld. I would personally spend it on a car instead.
If you make friends with someone who can TIG weld, maybe they would be willing to let you be an apprentice for a few months. That would be a great way to gain experience. Also, don't expect to make any money being an apprentice. Seriously, doon't even ask for pay. Sweep the shop, to odd jobs in your spare time, and let them teach you how to weld.
Here's a thread kind of on the TIG vs MIG topic. I'm not sure if the car was ever finished.
BMW 2002

Quote
Robert Culbertson
Also, you CAN learn a lot more by just practicing welding than going to a school.
My father owns a small fab/machine shop. Every welder he has ever hired with a 2yr welding certificate has been garbage (except on female). I have never taken a class on welding and I can hold my own against most. People ask me how I got so good at welding, my response has always been, "Practice, lots and lots of practice."

Also, really good resource for quick questions if you decide to buy a welder: welding tips & tricks

So OP: buy a 240, start to work searching all the juicy stuff here, and look for a GOOD second hand machine. MIG
Get some 024 wire, some 030 and for shits-n-giggles some 035..

Buy some cheap or second hand 4-5" angle grinders, 2 of em.
One is your wire brush one, the other is your "rubber backed 5" sanding disc" one. (You're here to learn to weld---so that you can get sideways in a 240, not to learn as an end in itself)(and you ain't here to spend all day mostly changing from sanding disc to wire brush)

Buy stacks of 36, 60 and 120 discs...

Now get some scrap and clean it, 60grit is good..practice.. Get your future co-driver to help and also learn... Look inside the cover of the welder and familiarise yourself with the wire feed stuff and look at the recommended heat and feed settings, and then tune the speed and LISTEN...
You gotta listen.....

Remember the goal is getting sideways in the woods in a fun and sturdy AND SAFE car so you will have to weld sooner or later. And Mig WAS developed by your relatives over there------> so that "pretty damn good welds" could be made by less than 12 year Journeymen welders...with some practice...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

No to trying to teach yourself how to build a cage. Terrible idea because a cage is the last place to be making stupid mistakes.

Trying to teach yourself anything alone is very inefficient because you can't really tell when you are doing it correctly. Spending some time with a skilled proifessional is an excellent way to learn. Going to school is just a formalized way of doing that. Remember, you get what you pay for. A few hours or a day with an experienced welder is very helpfull, but nothing like going to school.

If you want to drive and don't have any skills, buy a log booked car. If you want to learn how to build, a car realize that you won't be driving for a long time if ever.

My advice is to slow down, save some money, volunteer at some events and learn.

Good luck.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Quote
Rallymech
My advice is to slow down, save some money, volunteer at some events and learn.

Chase some girls, wear a condom, travel, don't get arrested, don't go into debt or even use a credit card until you are... well, never really.

I took a Tig class at a local community college. We got through the entire semester's curriculum in the first week. It was more intended for not so bright or people with no experience of knowledge. All in all, that particular one was not worth it. Tig was like an afterthought. Their main goal was to turn out welders for industry, which means stick welding in the oil field...

First step is to find a shop near you that is building rally cars. Start dropping in and chatting with them. Show up near closing time and ALWAYS bring some beer. Listen more than you talk and see if you can't make some new friends...

I spent a good three or four years doing the above. After awhile I started pitching in and helping where I could. I listened ALOT, I drank alot of beer, I made alot of good friends. And I learned more than I ever could have otherwise.

---

Grant Hughes

You can buy a Miller Diversion 180(TIG) for around $1800, or a MillerMatic 211(MIG) for around $1100.

MIG is easier to learn, quicker to weld with(faster in general, less prep needed, etc), but TIG is much more versatile.

When it comes to race cars, you can do more with a TIG. It does have a steeper learning curve though, so you won't be welding cages together and building headers right off the bat.

Here's a great resource for automotive-related fabrication: http://honda-tech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53

Quote
b00sted
Here's a great resource for automotive-related fabrication: http://honda-tech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53

I believe that's the first time I've ever seen "great resource" and a link to honda-tech in the same sentence.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Have you ever read through some of the threads in that particular forum? Tons of great fabrication-related info...Not the typical honda fanboy stuff that most of the other sub-forums have.

Quote
b00sted
Have you ever read through some of the threads in that particular forum? Tons of great fabrication-related info...Not the typical honda fanboy stuff that most of the other sub-forums have.

I'd say I forgot my [sarcasm] tags, but I'm not sure I did.

Nope, never even knew that was on there. I think last time I even read H-T (aside from google results and or links to trainwreck threads) was 4-5 years ago. Have definitely wasted some time on the Fabrication forums on 4x4pirates or whatever that was though.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

(I know your first post was sarcastic..But it's true. Lot's of BS on HT)

But, for future reference, they actually have good tech info in that fabrication subforum. Plus all the TIG porn you could ever want. I agree about the rest of the site though...Quite a bit of honda-kid BS. I tried reading around in the road racing forum before and ended up with a head ache.

Pirate4x4 is a good one too...And much more geared towards MIG welding it seems.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2013 06:32PM by b00sted.