Noob wants to fabricate. Which end do you hold?

You are heading at this focusing to some degree on the wrong things; no offense intended BTW. No rule against welding a cage yourself. But, for that first cage:

- Getting a good cage design is not that hard IF you find someone really experienced with rally cages and willing to work with you AND you listen!! NO free-lancing or "I wanna do it this way becuz..."
- Go look at 15-20 rally cages carefully and take notes and pictures first. This will help fix in your mind what is what, and you ask more intelligent questions.
- Expect this to take a lot more time than you would expect or would like. Don't even start if you are not willing to put a 100-150 hundred hours into this. Part is fun but part will be drudgery.
- Keep the design basic and simple first time. Work with a rally tech inspector with your design BEFORE buying the tubing. Be ready to revise and resbumit the design 1 or 2 times.
- A large car passenger compartment will make your first a LOT job easier. The Volvo should be easy; the Merkur probably so.
- Pick the rally seats you will use and the helmet and buy 1 seat BEFORE tubing bends and fitment and figuring out the final mounting plates. Place the driver's seat where you need it and then making sure it will work with the cage tubing placement; this is critcal. Do the same for the navvie seat placement (less critical for driving position). Make up some temp seat mounts to put the seats in the exact final locations so you can get the seat in and out fast for repeated checks. This step is very IMPORTANT for main hoop placement, roof X placement, and any tubing near the side of the helmet, plus side bars.
- Good tubing fits is the most important aspect of good cage fab; good fitment can make up some for mediocre welds in an actual crash; the reverse is less true. Good fitment can be done by anyone with decent skills and willing to take the time, do quality work, AND be ready to mercilessly pitch any poor fitting pieces. Buy extra tubing when you get the tubing; you'll use the leftovers someday if you are a car guy. Don't skimp on an extra $100-200 of tubing.
- Making the floor plates can be tricky; it's best to copy other designs and locations, or consult with the tech guy if he has knowledge on that particular car.
- Get either a fair sized bench grinder, or much better, a drill press and rotary cutting bit and angle jig to hold the pipe for end cutting of bell-mouths; neither do not cost that much.
- A good hydraulic tubing bender for these sizes costs $500-600; can be re-sold and you get back a good part of your $$; same for the end cutter.
- Get a cheap MiG welder, practice on some scrap tube and plate til decent, and in welding 1/8" plate to car sheet metal (somewhat tricky). Then carefully tack in the plates and main tubes. You will need grinders as suggested before.
- Start fitting and tacking in the bracing tubes and side bars. STOP and ask questions first if anything is not clear.
- When done, haul to a good welder to weld it all up.
- Sand, grind and paint.

This is a possible project but more than a backyard mechanic level project. It is invloved to a fair degree, not as much so but coming close to basic engine building. It takes time and the ability to stand back and think and re-do, the humility to be able to ask many questions and do it someone else's way, and not just wildly go and do.

Mark B.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/tls/3558718128.html
Hobart 230V Mig welder - $400 (Cannon Falls)
image 1 image 2 image 3
Hobart Handler Mig welder
230V 25-180 AMP Output
Has a purge setting
works great no problems
comes with the cart 25 foot extension cord brand new .030 wire spool
Roughly 5 yes old and used as a hobby machine mostly
Call Bobby for more info 952-292-85nine2

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ben,
As the guys have been saying. Do you really want to learn to "make stuff" and then actually make it for your rally car?
Or, do you want to drive a rally car?
Most people today don't want to learn how to make stuff. You get your hands dirty making stuff.
If you really want to make stuff, for cheap, my $.02 for what it's worth.
Buy a Harbor Freight 90 amp T.I.G. welder (on sale) for $150. Get a bottle for Argon for $80 and fill it for $40. Buy 5# weld wire for $20. A helmet for $50. Buy a DVD on welding for $40 and your ready for practice for <$400 . The H/F machine will make just as good of welds as a expensive machine (if you are a real welder) I have had welders come by the house and use my machine having never seen it before and it makes beautiful, sound welds every time when used within it's designed limits. It's scratch start like a stick welder, not hi-freq, but it works fine. I can't weld with it, but I can't weld with a 3K machine, either, so that would be an operator problem, not machine. I'm pretty good at machining/fabricating stuff, I just have to get others to weld the stuff I make.
Have fun,
Don

Quote
N. Versailles Cobra
Ben,
As the guys have been saying. Do you really want to learn to "make stuff" and then actually make it for your rally car?
Or, do you want to drive a rally car?
Most people today don't want to learn how to make stuff. You get your hands dirty making stuff.
If you really want to make stuff, for cheap, my $.02 for what it's worth.
Buy a Harbor Freight 90 amp T.I.G. welder (on sale) for $150. Get a bottle for Argon for $80 and fill it for $40. Buy 5# weld wire for $20. A helmet for $50. Buy a DVD on welding for $40 and your ready for practice for <$400 . The H/F machine will make just as good of welds as a expensive machine (if you are a real welder) I have had welders come by the house and use my machine having never seen it before and it makes beautiful, sound welds every time when used within it's designed limits. It's scratch start like a stick welder, not hi-freq, but it works fine. I can't weld with it, but I can't weld with a 3K machine, either, so that would be an operator problem, not machine. I'm pretty good at machining/fabricating stuff, I just have to get others to weld the stuff I make.
Have fun,
Don

Bad advice.

Better a real but used than new shit...

And unless a guy wants to have a very frustrating time every time a little thing needs zapping together---ie whole days stops, then time wasted pulling favors, SOONER OR LATER anybody playing car racing will need to weld good welds.
Strike to start is bullshit.

Better used but good than new shit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
N. Versailles Cobra
Ben,
As the guys have been saying. Do you really want to learn to "make stuff" and then actually make it for your rally car?
Or, do you want to drive a rally car?
Most people today don't want to learn how to make stuff. You get your hands dirty making stuff.
If you really want to make stuff, for cheap, my $.02 for what it's worth.
Buy a Harbor Freight 90 amp T.I.G. welder (on sale) for $150. Get a bottle for Argon for $80 and fill it for $40. Buy 5# weld wire for $20. A helmet for $50. Buy a DVD on welding for $40 and your ready for practice for <$400 . The H/F machine will make just as good of welds as a expensive machine (if you are a real welder) I have had welders come by the house and use my machine having never seen it before and it makes beautiful, sound welds every time when used within it's designed limits. It's scratch start like a stick welder, not hi-freq, but it works fine. I can't weld with it, but I can't weld with a 3K machine, either, so that would be an operator problem, not machine. I'm pretty good at machining/fabricating stuff, I just have to get others to weld the stuff I make.
Have fun,
Don

Bad advice.

Better a real but used than new shit...

And unless a guy wants to have a very frustrating time every time a little thing needs zapping together---ie whole days stops, then time wasted pulling favors, SOONER OR LATER anybody playing car racing will need to weld good welds.
Strike to start is bullshit.

Better used but good than new shit.

I agree, those Harbor Freight welders are shit. I certainly wouldn't weld a cage with one (probably wouldn't even work for that long.) Yes, technically it is a TIG welder but technically the Yugo was a car...

Yeah, if you try learning with a scratch-start tig, you're going to get frustrated and hate it.

If you want to start on the cheap, go find a nice used GAS mig welder. Seems like there's more mig machines out there, so they're easier to come by. Buy some .030 and .035 wire, some gas, and start welding scrap together.

Where are you thinking of going? Century? Anoka Ramsey? Let me know...

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Somewhere in this process you need a good way to cut 1/8" plate and .060 and .080 sheet, plus cut tubes. A sawzall is nice for the sheet; slow but better than nothing for the 1/8" plate but will be slow, as you need to keep the blade speed down. Anyone have a better suggestion for 1/8" plate cutting besides an oxy cutting torch or plasma cutter? A battery powered sawzall will be nice in the rally service areas, but may be a bit weak for plate cutting. The number of tools needed is kinda mounting up....but if you are a long term car guy, they will pay for themselves.

Also, in the process I described above, where you have someone else weld up a tacked-up cage, be ready to cut some u-shapes in the roof sheet metal to peel up and allow the tops of the tubes by the roof; you won't get away with unwelded spots in rally inspections. You will need 4 for an X roof brace and 5 for a vee roof brace. One of those drudergy, and time consuming things when you go to patch these up.

Mark B.

Quote
starion887
Somewhere in this process you need a good way to cut 1/8" plate and .060 and .080 sheet, plus cut tubes. A sawzall is nice for the sheet; slow but better than nothing for the 1/8" plate but will be slow, as you need to keep the blade speed down. Anyone have a better suggestion for 1/8" plate cutting besides an oxy cutting torch or plasma cutter? A battery powered sawzall will be nice in the rally service areas, but may be a bit weak for plate cutting. The number of tools needed is kinda mounting up....but if you are a long term car guy, they will pay for themselves.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Buy some cheap or second hand 4-5" angle grinders, 2 of em.
One is your wire brush one, the other is your "rubber backed 5" sanding disc" one. (You're here to learn to weld---so that you can get sideways in a 240, not to learn as an end in itself)(and you ain't here to spend all day mostly changing from sanding disc to wire brush)

No reason the angle grinders can't cut all that stuff with a cutting disc. Just buy a third one, they are cheap like John said, and dedicate it to cutting. Or just spend the time to switch discs out. But at $40-70 for decent NEW grinders, they will do a whole lot of stuff, and are a great value especially for someone just starting out.

John,
I think it looks pretty good for being welded with a $100 H/F welder and 2 small tanks of argon by my Step-Son that had about 8 years experience with his M.I.G., but never had a T.I.G. torch in his hand
till he welded up a few trial pcs. and started on the 1" frame tubes. He can now weld left handed, vertical up and overhead. I bet he could now pass a 6-G position ASME pipe weld test. He does learn things pretty quick, tho so may not be fair to compare him to other mechanics.
Anyway. Nice to brag about him that he's able to use my shity equipment to make non-shity welds.
Need to reduce the file size.
Good night guys,
El Cheapo Don

JV is right about buying a good welder vs. crap new stuff. Purchase #1- get a hobart handler 135 MIG 110v at 400$.Purchase #2- Buy JDsquared tubing bender and 1.5 and 1.75 inch dies at 800$ total http://www.jd2.com/ .Purchase #3- buy JDsquared tubing notcher and good hole saws 300$. Purchase 4-(and the most important purchase of all) a 4 and 1/2 inch angle grinder and a shit ton of discs at 150$. Add in material costs,(unsure of cost at todays steel prices, it's been probably 2 years since I've purchased cdm tubing), ie- cdm tubing, scrap for gussets, a 3ftx3ft sheet of 1/8th inch for foot plates and misc reinforcement, and welding wire and gas. So, for around 2,500 hundred dollars, tooling and material, you can completely seem weld, reinforce, and cage your car. As apposed to paying a professional 500 more to do the job. If you were born with more than a brain stem, it will take you a half hour of practice with a 110 hobart mig unit and you'll be ready to jump into it. And, in the end you'll have all of the equipement to build again. This info, is from my own personal rally build. And I was one to ignore the popular opinion to buy a used rally car. Every question you have on cage building interpretation of the FIA rules can be answered on this forum.

I vote Mig. Every good American should have a gas shield wire feed welder in the garage. Find a used Miller or Lincoln with gas shielding and you will not regret the extra outlay. 110v is great for learning and most projects, but 220v is needed for over 1/8 inch thick material.

A roll cage is definitely not a first project.

Also, a good jigsaw (Bosch, Milwaukee, Dewalt..) is a great fab tool. With the right blade and going slow you can cut parts out of 1/4" steel, as well as get stuff done on car bodies fast, and unlike a cut off wheel you can do inside corner cuts, curves and aluminum.

Those 4.5" Harbor Fright grinders are amazing little units for $12.99 (with coupon). I have one of those and a $40 Craftsman, and I'm tempted to go get a few more of the HF ones so I only have to change discs when they're worn out.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

HF also has one of those oscillating scrapers for 15$ worked wonders for cleaning the tar off. Keep the grinder nearby to sharpen it every now and again.

Anyone know anything about the Cambell Hausfeld welders?

Thank you all very much for all the information. I do want to make one thing clear, I'm not suddenly jumping into welding a cage. I'm not going to touch a cage until I feel comfortable with a welder and have someone who is apt at welding cages look at my welding. I don't feel like driving a death trap.

I thought I could convince the landlord that a 220v socket should be put in my garage but evidently l need to work on my Jedi mind tricks. I'm stuck with a standard wall socket. Will that be enough to actually warrant buying a welder? Would buying a generator be an option or is that just going too far? (I wouldn't mind running a 220v compressor). I might bring it up with them again.

As for buying a used welder. What should I watch out for? How do i know if I'm buying something that is good or something that is barely limping along? I don't want to buy a HF welder (many horrible reviews) or any other temporary, half-assed welders. I want to do it right the first time.