Front or rear steer?
Posted by sidewaez
sidewaez Blake Lind Mega Moderator Location: Hillsboro Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 233 Rally Car: orange AE86 |
All of my cars have always been rear steer: DSM, AE86, EVO and now the Celica. But both systems seem to be equally popular all the Subaru's and 240's are front steer. It seems to me rear steer has more points in pro's column: more protected tie rods, shorter steering column and Toe-out gain under compression/droop. The only advantage besides circumstantial packaging I can come up with for front steer is that under hard cornering the outside wheels tie-rod is under tension making it less likely to bend from hitting stuff. What am I missing here? If you were designing a car which one? |
The one thing I loved about the WRX that I co-drove at autocrosses ten years ago was how we could align the car at -1.5 camber and zero toe for the drive to the event, slap the camber plates over during the tire change and have -3.5 camber and 1/4" toe out.
edit: in case that isn't clear, it's an advantage of front steer, but only when you want toe-out when you have more camber Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2013 04:40PM by Iowa999. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Rally= everything dies eventually. Front mount, service is a snap, but chance for tie rod getting dinged is higher
rear mount: tie rods can still die, service/swap plumbing, everything is a bitch. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
heymagic Banned Senior Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
Front steer as John mentioned is easier to service, change parts. Damage results in a toe-in position. Rear steer results in toe-out position. Mostly the steering position is likely a result of design issues with the engine oil pan rather than a handling benefit.
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sidewaez Blake Lind Mega Moderator Location: Hillsboro Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 233 Rally Car: orange AE86 |
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Pete Pete Remner Ultra Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
Toe change with droop hasn't anything to do with front-steer or rear-steer, you can get any kind of bumpsteer you want with either method. Front steer allows you to more easily put the calipers behind the axle, which is nice for various reasons, and it means that control arm bushing compliance under lateral load tends to make the outside wheel toe out instead of toe in. Negative feedback loops handle nicer than positive feedback loops. Besides that, though, theory is theory, what's the REST of the car like? Pete Remner Cleveland, Ohio 1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing) 1978 Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2013 07:26AM by Pete. |
sidewaez Blake Lind Mega Moderator Location: Hillsboro Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 233 Rally Car: orange AE86 |
the car is an 84 Toyota Celica coupe, we'll be using a 2001-2004 Tacoma 2.4l 4cyl "2RZ", it will be turbocharged.
We're not planning on using much of the mechanicals from the original car, so the original layout won't influence the build unless there isn't a good reason to change it. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Yikes! when did that happen? You don't think that thing would be fun enuf with just some non-smog cams? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2013 03:55PM by john vanlandingham. |
John Reed John Reed Infallible Moderator Location: Portland, Oregon Join Date: 06/09/2012 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 176 Rally Car: Toyota AE86 |
I just want to be after them on stage, should be a clean line to follow and maybe some fresh rubber laid down to boot! John Reed John Reed Racing www.johnreedracing.com johnreedracing@gmail.com |
acrane adam crane Infallible Moderator Location: Seattle, WA Join Date: 01/28/2006 Posts: 382 Rally Car: corolla GT-yes |
Running right on left, etc.
The steering arm gets shorter, higher to match stock Corolla power steering arms. "I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane http://CraneRallyCrew.com corolla gt-s "Patches" Op: S.S. |
90Alltrac Gabe Grodzicki Elite Moderator Location: the murder mitten Join Date: 01/18/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 11 Rally Car: 1990 audi 90 quattro - under construction |
any reason you arn't going to just run a 3sgte in it? Not driving a car like it was meant to be driven to keep it nice for the next owner is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will enjoy her more. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
I asked the same and Blake---who is a pretty clear thinking guy pointed out he can pick up these pick up motores for nada hellava lot. Like $150-250 and they are born N/S... So he and I searched all the data like bore stroke, valve size, rod length, compression etc... and it was clear that just dropping the thing in bone stock would give a killer torquey motor, and just simple "girlie-cams" nothing HOT per se but something a little warm would be hilarious... Hence my confusion and dismay at deciding to turbocharge the thing... Like just how much power does a guy need? John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
90Alltrac Gabe Grodzicki Elite Moderator Location: the murder mitten Join Date: 01/18/2013 Age: Settling Down Posts: 11 Rally Car: 1990 audi 90 quattro - under construction |
good point the 3s is kind of spencie.... Not driving a car like it was meant to be driven to keep it nice for the next owner is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will enjoy her more. |
czwalga steve czwalga Mod Moderator Location: Pittsburgh, PA Join Date: 09/16/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 376 Rally Car: 95 awd celica |
Yeah, I run a 3sge, has some pep in the upper rpms, nothing in the lower RPMS. Not sure who decided a transverse engine with awd was a good idea, but thats besides the point. Maybe ill have to look into this 2rz engine... where can we get them super cheap? |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Well they are a superb motor and they are nice and compact, and with the bore of 86mm, they are down in the ideal 85/86mm range that works so well with restrictors cause they stand higher compression... And they do pop up.. I found 3 at various times in the local pull-a-part junk yards between 2003-2008 and in those days, it would have been about 175 bucks complete. But all the possible recipients were convinced turning it 90 degrees was too much bother so they got crushed. I am confused though why Blake wants to make expensive problems for himself just to burn up tires faster... John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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