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czwalga



Yeah, I run a 3sge, has some pep in the upper rpms, nothing in the lower RPMS. Not sure who decided a transverse engine with awd was a good idea, but thats besides the point.

Maybe ill have to look into this 2rz engine... where can we get them super cheap?

That has to be tuning--and maybe cam--choices..
The Toilettas in the day were the torque Kings of Group A and back then I didn't understand, now I do..

And as for E/W mounting, sure seems that the vast majority of cars that have done good at the highest levels in the world have been E/W....
That Japonasie car with the entire engine sticking out way in front of the front axle by several feet---when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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john vanlandingham

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czwalga



Yeah, I run a 3sge, has some pep in the upper rpms, nothing in the lower RPMS. Not sure who decided a transverse engine with awd was a good idea, but thats besides the point.

Maybe ill have to look into this 2rz engine... where can we get them super cheap?

That has to be tuning--and maybe cam--choices..
The Toilettas in the day were the torque Kings of Group A and back then I didn't understand, now I do..

And as for E/W mounting, sure seems that the vast majority of cars that have done good at the highest levels in the world have been E/W....
That Japonasie car with the entire engine sticking out way in front of the front axle by several feet---when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

Yea I have 2 alltracs running the 3sgte and they have a lot of low end torks...

mid to late 90's i believe

---

Not driving a car like it was meant to be driven to keep it nice for the next owner is like not having sex with your girlfriend so her next boyfriend will enjoy her more.

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john vanlandingham
when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

My guess would be: sometime before a majority of the FIA Senate were French.

But there's still WRC-3 (aka P-WRC)....

You can find the 2RZ on car-part.com in 1996-2004 Tacoma 2wd's they updated the head in 2000 and eliminated the distributer and the 8 intake port design, we're using the newer "4-port."

When we still had the corolla the plan was non-turbo 2RZ but with the Celica the plan has always been Turbo. We want to be able to have fun with the car at non-rally (paved) events and it will be more fun with more power, in rally tune it shouldn't be too rowdy.

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john vanlandingham

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czwalga



Yeah, I run a 3sge, has some pep in the upper rpms, nothing in the lower RPMS. Not sure who decided a transverse engine with awd was a good idea, but thats besides the point.

Maybe ill have to look into this 2rz engine... where can we get them super cheap?

That has to be tuning--and maybe cam--choices..
The Toilettas in the day were the torque Kings of Group A and back then I didn't understand, now I do..

And as for E/W mounting, sure seems that the vast majority of cars that have done good at the highest levels in the world have been E/W....
That Japonasie car with the entire engine sticking out way in front of the front axle by several feet---when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

With the stock toyota celica ones, a clutch swap means an engine pull. Not a huge fan of the design.


The 3sge is non-turbo 2.0, feels good from about 6-7k rpms. Goes great with my terrible gearing.

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Iowa999

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john vanlandingham
when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

My guess would be: sometime before a majority of the FIA Senate were French.

..

They aren't.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Iowa999
But there's still WRC-3 (aka P-WRC)....

Where my favorite quote is something along line of, "How does a Subaru driver win the PWRC? He buys an Evo."

---

Grant Hughes

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NoCoast

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Iowa999
But there's still WRC-3 (aka P-WRC)....

Where my favorite quote is something along line of, "How does a Subaru driver win the PWRC? He buys an Evo."

" How do you beat Toshi Arai in his GBP150,000 Subie?
Easy. Buy a GBP 25,000 Evo"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lauchlin O'Sullivan cost alot of Subaru drivers money in SP this year driving the Evo.
I still laugh that Evan Cline did the whole series finishing in 4th at an event being his best result, yet took 2nd place in the class for the year. I laugh more when I think back to all his whiney posts on specialstage.com about SP class.

---

Grant Hughes

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john vanlandingham
That Japonasie car with the entire engine sticking out way in front of the front axle by several feet---when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

I know people say that, but if you look at, say, an EvoWhatever... it also has the entire engine in front of the front axle, a much heavier engine too. And the whole transmission except for part of the trasnfer case is also ahead of the front axle , while the Subaru has most of the transmission's mass behind it...

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2013 05:08PM by Pete.

I'd half theorize that there's other things hurting the Subarus than just weight balance. The 4G63 seems like a lot better of a motor for a 34mm restrictor than the EJ205/7, even ignoring the differences in the homologated turbos.

I once went to watch a rally. It had some bloke called Colin McRae driving a Ford Puma Super1600 go through the stage first as 00 course car. Unfortunately the speed he went through at meant that then watching the competing drivers in their Ex WRC machinery was positively boring.....

Seem to recall in the same rally there was also a dude driving a tiny Nissan Micra 1300 that was consistantly taking time out of various MitsuEvobarus.

I have no idea whether the Puma Super1600 or Micra 1300 had the steering arms connected to the front or rear........

---

Disappointingly not yet a Jackass

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Pete

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john vanlandingham
That Japonasie car with the entire engine sticking out way in front of the front axle by several feet---when was the last time it was competitive in the WRC?

I know people say that, but if you look at, say, an EvoWhatever... it also has the entire engine in front of the front axle, a much heavier engine too. And the whole transmission except for part of the trasnfer case is also ahead of the front axle , while the Subaru has most of the transmission's mass behind it...

Sure, but how much forward of the axle centerine? About half the width of the motor to the center of the crank... The block is say 6 or 6.5" wide...
And weight---a LOT more??? I forget what a whole 4g62 weighs but its is a LOT lighter than a YB Cosworth....crank is much lighter, rods are lighter, pistons are lighter, and the block being narrower and shorter has to also be a LOT lighter than YB... but compared with EJ I can't say..

And yeah the bulk of the box is behind in the Subie but I don't think that counterbalances the whole motor being: half the diameter of the ring gear, maybe 4", then the whole width of the clutch maybe 3" the flywheel another 1", before you even start with the motor.. weight x distance means it "feels' even heavier.

What do you think the utter collapse of Subies WRC competitiveness stems from?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
mekilljoydammit
I'd half theorize that there's other things hurting the Subarus than just weight balance. The 4G63 seems like a lot better of a motor for a 34mm restrictor than the EJ205/7, even ignoring the differences in the homologated turbos.

Yep it is...head is better, block is rigid-er, and the critical thing is the bore is 85mm, while the old Subie is 92mm..
A bore 85mm will tolerate a lot more cylinder pressure (compression+ boost) than a 92mm bore....

Look at every other modern WRC motor from oh say end 1986 when Group B was cancelled and GpA took over.
2 have had bores over 86mm. YB Cosworth at 90,8mm and Subie EJ20 families at 92mm,,,

Even the WRC Focus 2,0 Duratec which is 87,5mm stock was sleeved down to 85mm..

And look at the new Subieyota thing: 86mm, new Evo10 motor: 86mm, old Toyota 3 GSE all-trac: 86mm, Ford's F2 motor: 86mm, GM great XE: 86mm---and all these 86mm bore motors are all 86mm stroke

The various kick ass French things were all 86 x 86 or 85 x 88 stroke.
Has to do with rise of temp and pressure related to distance the flame must burn..if it only has 82 or 85 or 86mm to travel in a given time, it can and its all done...not so with bigger bores...like 90.8 or 92 or 96..
Didn't hurt as much before 34mm restrictor days

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
What do you think the utter collapse of Subies WRC competitiveness stems from?

Since we're offtopic and shooting the shit more than anything.

I think it's kind of a lot of things. I got into a chat with someone who worked at Prodrive, who said that the move to Sachs dampers in '05 killed driver feedback, and the new style body had all sorts of issues with the rear geometry. I think that Prodrive may have been leaning on fully active diffs for tuning more than the other teams, so when they got banned they had a bunch more work to do to make up the gap and that hurt them even more. At the same time Ford and Citroen were stepping up their game.

Layout-wise... I dunno. Yeah, the engine's hanging out there farther, but it's not like an Audi I5, it's a short little thing and it's aluminum. Whether that beats a cast iron thing and transmission in front of the axle centerline but not as far forwards, I dunno. Ford put a lot of bucks to moving the transmission guts behind the axle centerlines back in the day on the Fuckus. I prefer the YB arrangement but apparently the production engineers didn't or something, go figure.