Shocking news from OZ: no restrictors and no HANS

been poking around over on the bottom half of the world and have seen some rather interesting things, the 2 most striking things is they give turbocharged car owners the choice: wanna run race gas or Elf spec fuel---34mm restrictors
Chose to run pump 98RON, then no restrictor...

And , no HANS required, just reccomended...

Those pooooooor bastards....don't they know they're ALL gonna die?

Don't they know that its just a fluke that so many people in Yoooor-up are breaking their backs in the last year-18 months in International events?

Haven't they seen the results of the 3 year study painstakingly done somewhere which concluded the way to reduce escalating speeds and costs in Open Class was to redcue the engine size allowed in 2wd turbo OPEN cars and slap a 32mm restrictor on them?
One guys there was saying all told it cost him about $3000 Aussie dollars to machine all his compressor housings, make the restrictors, and do the rolling road dyno to make the car run --somewhat---
I eman I know they're all upside down and the bathtubs drain circling the other way and they drive on the wrong side of the road, seems backward him spending $3000 when the Tech Experts said the 32mm restrictor for OPEN 2wd will reduce costs for OPEN 4wd..

Are they all drunk---or mad????

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I'll take pump gas and no restrictor for $200, Alex...

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Make it run on the Premium at the 7-Eleven...been saying that for a decade.

HANS...I don't know. I run one in LeMons, because a teammate bought one and it seemed better than the stupid foam horse collar things they make you run. Really I think something like a LEATT or one of those Hutchins Hybrid things might actually be better than the HANS, but the HANS is in stock.

I do know of an off at a Rally NY where a certain 1.8 Impreza tagged a tree and left its HANS-wearing occupants with broken backs, Life-Flight bills, and months of recovery time. Maybe the HANS cracked the lower backs to save the necks, maybe they walked without the HANS. Looking at the wrecked car, it didn't seem bad enough to have much more than bruised egos...the cage survived fine.

Who knows. I do know all these head and neck restraints seem a lot less complex to construct than a helmet, but cost 2.5-3 times as much as a rules-compliant lid.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

I had a slightly sore neck for 24 hours after our crash, and I atribute it 100% toi the Safety Solutions H&N restraint. I really think that the way the Safety Solutions system ties into the belts is a FAR superior system.

When I looked a few years ago, CAMS also allowed 4 pt. harnesses in club level events. Maybe even regional levels.

I'm a bit curious about the suggestion that a head and neck device would contribute to a broken back. I just can't see how a HANS device (specifically) would transfer any load to the back in an accident. (or is the 18 month time-frame aimed at indicating it is the Hybrid in question)

As for them being of value - we had an accident where the driver had a HANS device and the co-driver didn't. The differences in the injuries were staggering.(driver went home that night, co-driver woke up in ICU over a week later)
Slow car, slow corner. Life changing injuries that would have been prevented with a HANS device. (not if... absolutely would have been prevented)

Haven't given much thought to other H&N devices since I had to buy HANS when I got mine.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote

When I looked a few years ago, CAMS also allowed 4 pt. harnesses in club level events. Maybe even regional levels.

How many die per event?
How many die per year because of this?

Quote

I'm a bit curious about the suggestion that a head and neck device would contribute to a broken back.

Lots of discussion about that elsewhere. 7-9 people in last 18 months in ERC type events..
Search. Non North American sources..

Quote

I just can't see how a HANS device (specifically) would transfer any load to the back in an accident. (or is the 18 month time-frame aimed at indicating it is the Hybrid in question)

That is hardly much of a counter-argument. I can't see how either, but that's not surprising because I know I'm here in Seattle not at the crash site and in the hospital speaking with the doctors...
The discussion isn't really about personal awareness about things, is it?
Sometimes reality should force its way into our conciousness.

The Subject was :
Autralian Federation does not require HANS type things...

Quote

As for them being of value - we had an accident where the driver had a HANS device and the co-driver didn't. The differences in the injuries were staggering.(driver went home that night, co-driver woke up in ICU over a week later)
Slow car, slow corner. Life changing injuries that would have been prevented with a HANS device. (not if... absolutely would have been prevented)

Anrcdotal scary stories obviously may do as reasoning for many..
But to even begin to make me think about the 'reasoning" I'd want to see post crash de-briefing of driver and co-driver, tons of photos of the scene, the vehicle and then a crash report..
See, the second things I ever read when I learned to read with Aircraft Crash Reports often including reconstruction and analysis..FAA type recontruction and analysis...

I do not think there exists analysis of that ^ or any rally crash that anybody can say with any kind of certainty that one thing or another caused this or that...
Recognizing the limits of our collective knowledge is the difference between you and I, Morison. You have faith in your intelligence and essential infalibility.
We see it in the way you write the next sentance
V
V
V
V

Quote

Haven't given much thought to other H&N devices since I had to buy HANS when I got mine.

You bought it and didn't think about it any more. Case closed.


But again the subject is the use of HANS and 34/32mm restrictors is not a universal requirement, and the body count is not astronomical as it is portrayed as enivitable by certain voices here.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

and you can run

Australian Classic Rally Challenge
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Please refer www.rally.com.au or contact admin@rally.com.au
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An approximate minimum total of 72-minutes of national airtime on Ten/ONE.
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video of the classics

---

"I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane
http://CraneRallyCrew.com
corolla gt-s "Patches"
Op: S.S.

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john vanlandingham
How many die per event?
How many die per year because of this?

Who said anything about anyone dying?

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john vanlandingham
Lots of discussion about that elsewhere. 7-9 people in last 18 months in ERC Search. Non North American sources.

Links?

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john vanlandingham
That is hardly much of a counter-argument.

Maybe because it isn't. I said I was curious about the discussion, and was simply expanding on why I was curious.

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john vanlandingham
ISometimes reality should force its way into our conciousness.

Absolutely.
But is the reality that HANS devices are breaking people's backs or that people's backs are being broken while they are wearing a HANS device. (And is it a HANS or a H&N device?)

Quote
john vanlandingham
I do not think there exists analysis of that ^ or any rally crash that anybody can say with any kind of certainty that one thing or another caused this or that...

We both know that there is virtually no real analysis of rally accidents in north America. That said, it doesn't take a lot to brain power to connect the dots on this one.
We know the injury sustained by the co-driver and the injury HANS devices are designed to prevent. We also know the driver's side of the car stopped (slightly) more abruptly yet he was relatively injury free.
Anecdotal, yes... Compelling nonetheless. (In my mind and in the mind of many who were there at the scene)

Quote
john vanlandingham
You have faith in your intelligence and essential infalibility.

"Essential infalibility," I don't honestly know where you get this stuff.
Everyone makes mistakes. I tend to learn and grow from my mistakes... Not always the best way to do things, but some will just blame others for their mistakes and neither learn nor grow.

Quote
john vanlandingham
We see it in the way you write the next sentance

Quote

Haven't given much thought to other H&N devices since I had to buy HANS when I got mine.

You bought it and didn't think about it any more. Case closed.

All I was saying was the sanctioning body I rally under said I needed to buy a FIA approved head and neck device, why would I spend a lot of time looking around at other devices?

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john vanlandingham
...the body count is not astronomical as it is portrayed as enivitable by certain voices here.

Just out of curiosity, who is claiming astronomical body counts anywhere here?
Besides, should astronomical body counts be the standard for adopting safety measures? (How many is 'astronomical')

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 10:26AM by Morison.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote

How many die per event?
How many die per year because of this?

Quote

Who said anything about anyone dying?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Lots of discussion about that elsewhere. 7-9 people in last 18 months in ERC Search. Non North American sources.

Quote

Links?

Quote
john vanlandingham
That is hardly much of a counter-argument.

Maybe because it isn't. I said I was curious about the discussion, and was simply expanding on why I was curious.

Quote
john vanlandingham
ISometimes reality should force its way into our conciousness.

Absolutely.
But is the reality that HANS devices are breaking people's backs or that people's backs are being broken while they are wearing a HANS device. (And is it a HANS or a H&N device?)

Quote
john vanlandingham
I do not think there exists analysis of that ^ or any rally crash that anybody can say with any kind of certainty that one thing or another caused this or that...

We both know that there is virtually zero real analasys of rally accidents in north America.
That said, it doesn't take a lot to brain power to connect the dots on this one. We know the injury sustained by the co-driver and the injury HANS devices are designed to prevent. We also know the driver's side of the car stopped (slightly) more abruptly yet he was relatively injury free. Anecdotal, yes... Compelling nonetheless. (In my mind and in the mind of many who were there)

Quote
john vanlandingham
You have faith in your intelligence and essential infalibility.

Quote

"Essential infalibility," I don't honestly know where you get this stuff. Everyone makes mistakes. I tend to learn and grow from my mistakes... Not always the best way to do things, but some will just blame others for their mistakes and neither learn nor grow.

Quote
john vanlandingham
We see it in the way you write the next sentance
Haven't given much thought to other H&N devices since I had to buy HANS when I got mine.

You bought it and didn't think about it any more. Case closed.

All I was saying was the sanctioning body I rally under said I needed to buy a FIA approved head and neck device, why would I spend a lot of time looking around at other devices?

t

Quote
john vanlandingham
...the body count is not astronomical as it is portrayed as enivitable by certain voices here.

Who is claiming astronomical body counts anywhere here?
Besides, should astronomical body counts be the standard for adopting safety measures? (How many is 'astronomical')

What the Feck wuzzat?

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

Quote
Creech

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote

How many die per event?
How many die per year because of this?

Quote

Who said anything about anyone dying?

Quote
john vanlandingham
Lots of discussion about that elsewhere. 7-9 people in last 18 months in ERC Search. Non North American sources.

Quote

Links?

Quote
john vanlandingham
That is hardly much of a counter-argument.

Maybe because it isn't. I said I was curious about the discussion, and was simply expanding on why I was curious.

Quote
john vanlandingham
ISometimes reality should force its way into our conciousness.

Absolutely.
But is the reality that HANS devices are breaking people's backs or that people's backs are being broken while they are wearing a HANS device. (And is it a HANS or a H&N device?)

Quote
john vanlandingham
I do not think there exists analysis of that ^ or any rally crash that anybody can say with any kind of certainty that one thing or another caused this or that...

We both know that there is virtually zero real analasys of rally accidents in north America.
That said, it doesn't take a lot to brain power to connect the dots on this one. We know the injury sustained by the co-driver and the injury HANS devices are designed to prevent. We also know the driver's side of the car stopped (slightly) more abruptly yet he was relatively injury free. Anecdotal, yes... Compelling nonetheless. (In my mind and in the mind of many who were there)

Quote
john vanlandingham
You have faith in your intelligence and essential infalibility.

Quote

"Essential infalibility," I don't honestly know where you get this stuff. Everyone makes mistakes. I tend to learn and grow from my mistakes... Not always the best way to do things, but some will just blame others for their mistakes and neither learn nor grow.

Quote
john vanlandingham
We see it in the way you write the next sentance
Haven't given much thought to other H&N devices since I had to buy HANS when I got mine.

You bought it and didn't think about it any more. Case closed.

All I was saying was the sanctioning body I rally under said I needed to buy a FIA approved head and neck device, why would I spend a lot of time looking around at other devices?

t

Quote
john vanlandingham
...the body count is not astronomical as it is portrayed as enivitable by certain voices here.

Who is claiming astronomical body counts anywhere here?
Besides, should astronomical body counts be the standard for adopting safety measures? (How many is 'astronomical')

What the Feck wuzzat?

(Not that I give a Shyte about the argument, I just wonder how small and convoluted it will make each consecutive Quotation)

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

iPad ... Will fix later

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Speaking of silly rules, see ra's new rule regarding padding everywhere. I wonder if it was marker's wreck or yeoman's that led to this rule...

---

Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
Speaking of silly rules, see ra's new rule regarding padding everywhere. I wonder if it was marker's wreck or yeoman's that led to this rule...

Seeing as Yeoman's wreck had those front halo bars pushed forward quite a bit. I can see the rational. Though that was a hugeee wreck.

I'd guess Yeoman's accident since some I know were told the reasoning was that 'while you might not normally get to that bar, sometimes the bar will come to you.

Then again, nobody died in Yeoman's accident so why would anyone bother looking at safety improvements...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 10:29AM by Morison.

We actually have the same thing in Colorado at hillclimb events...except they don't have that pesky pump gas requirement, though I do run E85 from the pump. PPIHC does require HANS and I think since most rally guys have them, they do wear them at CHCA races.

Dave