springs & swaybars vs springs only (on gravel)

I have a pseudo co-driver and she's loves her fancy new stop-watch. She also loves to yell "don't cut" at what seems to me to be random times (i.e., never at the same corner on two successive runs), but it's all in good fun.

If anyone else who is nearby would like to either try the car or help swap the suspension when it's ready in return for credit in, say, my grad-level ergonomics and human factors course, I might risk a nasty letter from my dean for that.

As to valving, I will attach what I have, which is a plot of the front shocks. I would be delighted to get feedback on how wrong they will be for the one-off, uber-expensive, 280 #/inch springs that I will have made from pure unobtainium because, dammit, we're doing this my way or not at all. tee hee

Oops. Sorry. I didn't mean to skip the other direct question. I will not know the amount of travel until later this week or the weekend.

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danster
I do know some folks with adjustable dampening shocks would just disconnect the arbs and soften the shocks for wet or dirt, then reconnect arbs and stiffen the shocks for the dry. So would some kind of adjustable shock not be a better bet than a fixed rate seeing as the OP wishes dual use?

Oh, wow. Can you get me in touch with said people, as that is exactly what I had originally hoped to do. And, yes, I agree that it would require adjustables. But I'm ready for that if it can all be done with one set-up and no swapping other than attaching or detatching the bars.

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danster
I'd love to help but just what is an EvoX?

Only the ugliest Evo in history.

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Grant Hughes

http://www.exe-tc.co.uk/world-rally-suspension

They have a bit of information about why they do things like rebound wheel-drop, position sensitive damping, etc...

Pretty much everything boils down to 'softer spring rates equals more grip' (at least for accel and braking forces)
The rest is just a way of keeping the chassis from slamming into the ground:
-Hydro bump stops
-Progressive springs
-Speed sensitive damping
-Position sensitive damping
-Looooong travel
-zero-rebound wheel drop to get the wheel in contact with the ground sooner upon landings so all the fancy valving has a chance to work with the soft springs and still keep the chassis from slamming the ground.
-etc
-etc

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

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How are you reading your corner spring rates on the scales by adding sway bars? Ive always scaled cars with out bars. There always neutral at ride hieght correct. Are you figuring diamater of the sway bar and adding the arm length to come up with a number and somehow adding it in? Are you using a gale force machine to get these numbers? I really am curios if this is a computer program or actual #s from the car. I believe 140# springs could work.

I ran sno drift last week with no bars and 175# springs up front and 150# progressive rears and it could of easily been softer up front with stock sti struts. My car wieghs around 3800#s with driver /codriver.

Oval track cars sway bars are always free one direction on the left front and only hooked on the RF corner. This way the LF can bump and not affect the RF in the corner.

I would guess that fast smooth gravel roads would want sway bars and rough tight roads would not want bars. I dont think I would change springs in either case just shock valving.

A guess to why guys are running only front or only rear would be more of what the car wants to do when your asking it to do something else threw corners?

I have not delt with rear sway bars enough to know there benefits and where in the corners they help. Any body know?

All of these set ups are going to need tweeking for your car. To know what other guys are doing and why is always better then total blind guessing.

As long as people understand what these changes do. A person should be able to test and aplly to what there car wants. It is rocket science but it is also stupid simple at the same time. Road conditons do change.I believe knowing what the car is going to do when you ask it to and why is going to be key.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Reamer
How are you reading your corner spring rates on the scales by adding sway bars?

I'm not using scales for this. I'm doing all of this by formula, which I know can be off due to errors in measurement, bushing resistance, etc, but I don't have scales. For the bars, I'm using the Fred Puhn method to get the effect on single-wheel bump.

In my defense, the few times that I had access to scales for corner-weighting my previous (tarmac) car, I was never off by more than about 5%.

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The mention of progressive springs got my attention above. I am considering trying this, too, but have many questions. But maybe that should wait for another day.

5% off in an oval car is the differance from 1st to being lapped. Just saying.

I talked to Evan Cline last night about bars and what he ran. He is not Lestage but he is quick with what he has. He said you will really want sway bars going into a R5 at 90mph. He claims you dont want that much body roll at high speeds. That it slows the car down to much and ruins the entry to higher speed corners.

So I guess if it were me running rallycross I would not run sway bars. If I were at 100 acre wood I would run sways.

You could always try going into a R5 with out sways at 90mph and see how it feels! Or you could trust the guys who have. I guess it depends on how many cars you have.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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My problem is that I want a lesser sway bar up front but I really can't get anything less than what is offered on the OEM.

Considering the setups that honda had from the factory for Civics, no sways for basic models, front 22m hollow bar for mid-range, 22mm hollow front and 13mm solid in the rear for "sport" models and then 22mm front and 22mm solid in the rear for "racing" models.

I pretty much run no sways for snow, no front and 13mm rear bar for gravel, 22mm front and aftermarket 24mm bar in the rear for tarmac.

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Reamer

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5% off in an oval car is the differance from 1st to being lapped. Just saying.

But in oval track racing there is a pile of guys why similar spec and similarly well developed cars with similar skills.
Not the case with grass-o-cross.

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I talked to Evan Cline last night about bars and what he ran. He is not Lestage but he is quick with what he has. He said you will really want sway bars going into a R5 at 90mph. He claims you dont want that much body roll at high speeds. That it slows the car down to much and ruins the entry to higher speed corners.

Oh, yeah we sure enter lots of corners at 90mph...
how many corners did you just enter at 90mph at your latest event?
And how many grass-o-cross corners will this guy be entering at 90mph?

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So I guess if it were me running rallycross I would not run sway bars. If I were at 100 acre wood I would run sways.

Well that's a rally, this guy has been saying he wants to grass-o-cross.

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You could always try going into a R5 with out sways at 90mph and see how it feels! Or you could trust the guys who have. I guess it depends on how many cars you have.

The guy has said he's going to use 280 lb/in even though he'll have to pay hundreds of dollars for 2 custom wound springs because 275 pound/inch won't do....1.8% difference.
Don't you see how critical 1.8% is? Clearly you're not taking this serious enough. This IS something to discus for weeks and weeks and it doesn't matter what anybody thinks about these purely theoretical assumptions...

THINK of the CHILDREN ferfawkssake, you want them to be orphans?

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Sleezattle, WA, USA

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I talked to Evan Cline last night about bars and what he ran....

Thanks for posting that. Next time I'm reminded to put the toilet seat down, I'll mention to my wife the suggestion of trying a turn at 90 on gravel without bars just to see what happens.

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The guy has said he's going to use 280 lb/in even though he'll have to pay hundreds of dollars for 2 custom wound springs because 275 pound/inch won't do....1.8% difference.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

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My problem is that I want a lesser sway bar up front but I really can't get anything less than what is offered on the OEM.

Antoine L'E's bars are softer then OE but they are not the Cusco rally bars, they are - he told me - OE bars that had been shaved. Maybe you could do the same?

You must have missed the part where my front bars are hollow. Can't really shave them down without changing the structural integrity of the bar itself. I'd just go with some sort of circle track quick change bars but then I'd have to spend too much money finding where to put it, hooking up the linkages, testing different bar sizes, etc.

I guess I haven't really looked at other options from early CRX models since they swap Integra suspension parts all the time, but I'm not sure what the two sub-frames look like side-by-side. I did all this sway bar research a while ago and forgot it all because the solution I have was the best I could come up with from what I read. I know people swap bars, I know the rears aren't 100% compatible but will work but the front suspensions are pretty much the same between integra/civic with the differences being bolt/bushing sizes (arms are the same size).

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BillyElliot
You must have missed the part where my front bars are hollow.

It's actually worse than that. I read your post carefully and didn't connect the dots that it would be difficult to impossible to shave a hollow bar. I also let my annoyance at the guy who doesn't get sarcasm (in others) make it sound like I didn't appreciate what Jeff wrote. I apologize to both of you.

edit: he's an autocrosser, but I don't think there are many people in the world who know more about the various suspension parts that are available for Hondas than Andy Hollis. He can be reached through SCCAForums or FlakeBook: https://www.facebook.com/HollisRacing



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2013 11:44AM by Iowa999.

I guess I dont see what toilet seats have to do with sway bars but I guess I was asking for that. I think really the case may be that when Even and other rallist were learning how to go fast the sway bar conversations were thought about. Then as the driver starts actually going fast he realises hey I think I want that stabuility at these speeds. So I guess the answer to your question is if your going slow at a grass o cross then you dont need bars and after you man up and really start going fast you do need sway bars.

What size bars and why is the real question?

Why does Billy want a smaller front bar and what other choices in set up does he have because his bar selection is limited?

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts