springs & swaybars vs springs only (on gravel)

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
Reamer
I talked to Evan Cline last night about bars and what he ran. He is not Lestage but he is quick with what he has. He said you will really want sway bars going into a R5 at 90mph. He claims you dont want that much body roll at high speeds. That it slows the car down to much and ruins the entry to higher speed corners.

Ya know, one way that so many falsehoods get perpetuated in rallying is by guys that do well in a very shallow field talking too much. I see it locally from myself and friends and I see it Nationally all the time. I can think of three drivers right off hand that are faster than the entire current field and didn't run front sway bars in their PGT WRXs.
If you worry too much about optimizing the car, you probably think too much to be a fast driver.
Wasn't there a great Gronholm quote about thinking? Or was it McRae?

Exactly right. Real fast driving is all muscle memory. Look, see, do. No time for thinking... at 55 mph you go 88 ft/sec. The simplest ordinary actions take the average person around .3 sec...
Some, after decades of training might be around .18---even when they're 60. That's for simple, you know its coming mash a button type decisions..

Over-thinking is something that plagues most amateurs...the more they over-think, the less they do to the point you have threads with hand-wringing go on for weeks and thousands of meaningless theorizing all about driving in a grassy field at slow speeds in a car that can drive itself and requires no thought..instead of driving the car and improving himself..

the car does nothing if the driver dopesn't put in gear and open the throttle.

Gronholm's best quote of many great quotes: "To go fast you need and empty head and a big foot."

I know exactly what he means. You Grant and several others have a glimpse of it in the music thread..

It's called TRANSCENDANCE to some of us guided by non-western philosphies..

How else can you explain idiots like me driving so hard with broken bones, torn ligaments, lemon sized rocks breaking your nose or continuing driving after denting a metal gas tank with your nuts----and only at the end noticing "Oh shit, I'm bleeding, hmmmm this is broken".

Because you (self, ego, conciousness) aren't there..

It's rarer in car driving cause even real good cars are still clunky piles of shit, and do not react virtually instantly to a subtle shift in body position...

But we sometimes get a glimpse in cars...a hint..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

On here were bench racing. Reality is a hole other story for me.I dont mind throwing set ups at a car to learn what it does. Rear sways are new to me so this topic is worth reading threw the crap to come up with a test plan.

When it comes to roll adding a stiffer rear spring does not ad weight to that corner. It stops the weight from going to that corner and pushes it to the weeker corner. Meaning now theres less grip. On the scales that corner will show more wieght because it is holding up more of the car but this is not about standing still its about roll.

I believe what Evan is discribing is no sways at high speeds will over wieght that corner and make to much grip then the tire will slip and loose all grip it had. Making the car inconsitant. If a car can have softer springs and light sways and be stable I feel it would be more consitant for the driver then a stiffer sprung car with out sways. The speeds may be the same but if the driver feels the car is mor e under him then his times should reflect that.

All this said I un hooked the sways on my Snomobile and will probably never hook them up again.

I have and always will be a fuck it and drive type when it comes to the car not being to my liking. Im not one to pull off or stop because my shit aint right. On the other hand Ive been racing a long time and I know set up is key in all racing and to think rally is different is crazy.
Subaru did not hire Higgens for his speed they hired him for his chassis knowledge. They learned this from TP and Mirra. They had no good feed back or knowledge on what they needed to change on the car for more speed. The crew can only do so much to the car. Without good feed back they will not get faster.

Billy, making the arms of the bar longer will soften it a bunch. That is probably the easiest way. 1" shouldnt hardly affect mounting and it doesnt ruin a bar if you dont like the affects.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Bench racing is also known as bench wanking and this poor forum has been thankfully free of the timewasting bench-wanking that ruins the majority of forums.

Jeff more weight on a coner pushes the tire down into the loose surface harder and that means MORE grip on all the things I have driven..Indeed, I stress learning to use FRONT barkes because we use that to SHIFT WEIGHT FORWARDS so they have more grip and let them drive around the corner..and eventually the rear will follow along..

In one point of view, big long slides are all about shifting weight to the outside front tire cause if that doesn't bite, the car is going to go forward.

Please splain how more weight doesn't lead to more grip?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I know I race differant then when im testing. I was asked at my first oval race what RPM i was running at the end of the straight away. Im like i have no clew and raced for years and to this day couldnt tell you. I did on the other hand take my car to the drag strip ran a 11.80 and watched the tach the hole way threw. Boring!!

I could not tell you what gear what rpm I shiffted or how fast I was going at any point at Sno drift. Im sure i was over 90mph many times because the rev limiter was banging but who knows how fast that is. Or even what gear I was in. Racing is look see do I agree 100% testing on the other hand is totaly differant. when were talking about sways and set up this to me is testing not rally.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

JV yes I agree more wieght on a corner makes more grip. Until theres to much wieght then the grip you had is now gone. If the car is transfering to much wieght to the out side tires at high speeds then a sway bar is needed to hold the wieght to the inside of the car to hold the grip you have. I have been talking about rear sways more then fronts.

This is the hole argument at lower speeds the grip is perfect with out bars. once even a slow driver gets to a certain speed they may want the stabuility of the sways. If some dude ten years ago was super fast in a pgt car with no sways good for them. Block Higgens and Antoine who are faster then any pgt car run sways on gravel. I cant remeber ever seeing a photo of any wrc cars with out sway bars. Im sure theres some out there but majority of the fast teams run them.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Quote
john vanlandingham
Bench racing is also known as bench wanking and this poor forum has been thankfully free of the timewasting bench-wanking that ruins the majority of forums.

Uhhhhhhhhh. Not sure you have read what is on this forum much then...

At what point in the build process does bench-wanking become implementation if the car is never finished?

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

As to why some fast folks might avoid bars ... the same thing that makes bars twice as effective as spring at fighting body-roll in a traditional turn, also makes them cause twice as much body-roll when a single wheel hits a bump. If having a settled car at corner-entry, even on a rough surface, is more important to you than preventing excessive roll during a turn, then you might avoid bars, regardless of speed.

fap, fap, fap

I dont see it being exactly twice. The bars twist this is why they come in different sizes. Rougher roads will want less bar. This is why I unhooked mine on the snomobile. It is worse on tight corners but all around smoother on the straights. 3 hours on rough sno trails tires my ass out. I dont have a nice confy seat on my sled thow.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Mathematically (fap, fap, fap), it really is twice. It might not feel that way because, while body roll due to traditional turning occurs at both ends of the car at once, a bump to a single wheel, by definition, affects only one end of the car. Thus, while the bar at the end of the car that hit the bump is caused to (or tries to) roll more because of its bar, the opposite end rolls less because of its bar. On a car with decent chassis torsional stiffness, therefore, having both bars greatly reduces the downside of having bars in the first place. The car will pitch when it hits the bump, instead of roll, and pitch doesn't reduce grip anywhere near as much as roll. The worst case - again, all in theory (fap, fap, fap) - would be having only one bar and hitting a bump with one of the wheels that is attached to said bar.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2013 07:04PM by Iowa999.

Wow. The above is almost impossible to read, eh?

Bars are twice as effective against roll than single-wheel bump. Ergo, bars are good when you want the car to remain parallel to the driving surface (i.e., when making a traditional turn on a flat surface), but bars are bad when you want the car to be able to be non-parallel to the surface (e.g., when a single wheel hits a bump ... you want to car to remain level, not roll away from the bump).

Taking a positive view of this thread, then, maybe there is no general answer to my question because it depends too much on surface quality and speed.

Shocks arrived. Droop travel is not going to be good and I doubt I'll be able to solve this, because total travel isn't good; there's no spare bump travel to shift over to droop. My wallet watched me doing these quick measurements and then tried to hide.

Quote
Iowa999
...maybe there is no general answer to my question because it depends too much on surface quality and speed.

And ditch hooking. And how well you 'flick on the Scandinavian scale. The vertical and the horizontal.

---

Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Quote
Iowa999
Wow. The above is almost impossible to read, eh?

Even with the noise removed it makes for a headache!

Quote
Iowa999
Shocks arrived. Droop travel is not going to be good and I doubt I'll be able to solve this, because total travel isn't good; there's no spare bump travel to shift over to droop. My wallet watched me doing these quick measurements and then tried to hide.

Wait until she sees what it costs! She WILL beat you! Perhaps you like that?

Want to drive the car fast on the grass? Have the right tires on it and drive it fast! Practicepracticepracticepracticepractice! Get a feel for the car such that you can feel if a shock is not right... if a Swaybar is off... Get comfortable enough with the rear stepping out that your heart doesn't jump into your throat with that shot of adrenaline. Just get out there and do it. Have fun at it.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Quote
Iowa999
Wow. The above is almost impossible to read, eh?

Yeqah, everything you write is.
I speak and read a pile of languages, and can speak with serious engine develiopment people in other languages pretty damn goo.
But your words, and mid-west-ese cone-squisher-ese, not a clue.

Quote

Shocks arrived. Droop travel is not going to be good and I doubt I'll be able to solve this, because total travel isn't good; there's no spare bump travel to shift over to droop. My wallet watched me doing these quick measurements and then tried to hide.

keep on fapping.. This entire thread is a big fap fest for you.

You resist everything but learn this J. Toby:
FIRST is weight
SECOND is how much travel you have
From that you make an educated --emprirical extrpolation at spring rate.


All this fapping and you don't even know how much travel you'll have....

Fap on, brah..

Do you know what the valving is?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The problem is, unless you're on SRT USA or whatever teams that can afford private test days to swap around springs/sways, you really can't justify suspension setups. It's also more of a seat of the pants feeling that we get that we all comment on.

Ideally, I'd love it if I could actually know bar sizes and swap around based off the road conditions for the leg of stages I'm running. But I need to find a best compromize for an all around setup. But something like STPR I wouldn't expect to run a sway bar up front but on an event like 100AW I would ideally like to run one because that rally is like driving on a freeway compared to other events.

Quote
Reamer
JV yes I agree more wieght on a corner makes more grip. Until theres to much wieght then the grip you had is now gone.

Not true, tire grip is directly proportionate to vertical load

Quote

If the car is transfering to much weight...

There's no such thing, it can only transfer so much weight... unless the CG is very high then it will tip over!