springs & swaybars vs springs only (on gravel)

Billy, try to attach the swaybar to another point on the control arm, that ratio will change the bar's effectiveness and will increase or reduce roll.

This is why talking on forums sucks but is good at the same time. You try to mix driver feed back with engineering facts and you come up with different answers.

A driver comes in and says that sway bar change made the car have to much grip going into said corner so I had to lift turn back and catch the front to the rear and the engineer says thats impossible you cant have to much grip! Cosworth your correct yet how do you explain the drivers feed back?

---

First rally 2013
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Reamer
Cosworth your correct yet how do you explain the drivers feed back?

What were all the conditions before and after, what did he like, what didn't he like. What was the behaviour of the car before and aft.

Most of the times, drivers cant really tell you what they don't like about it, and just want something different, this is at the pro level where they have all the butt sensors and muscle memory tuned up, now imagine some clubby guys. Sometimes drivers want something that actually makes them slower just because its what they're used to and comfortable. Then when you say its out of adjustment or say that ya its been done, they're finally happy and the settings are still the same. One drive to mind is Mathias Lauda (Nikki Lauda's son) at the 2012 24hrs of Spa, he wanted more roll stiffness at the rear, but that would clash with the amount of rear brake bias in order to maximize front pad life. Once we told him it was done, he went out to be 2nd at the end of the race. Drivers can only bring so much feedback, and most of the time is inconsistent and backwards. After all we're just humans.

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Cosworth

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Reamer
JV yes I agree more wieght on a corner makes more grip. Until theres to much wieght then the grip you had is now gone.

Not true, tire grip is directly proportionate to vertical load

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If the car is transfering to much weight...

There's no such thing, it can only transfer so much weight... unless the CG is very high then it will tip over!

And how do we measure vertical load (loaded question)?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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john vanlandingham
And how do we measure vertical load (loaded question)?

Vertical load => weight, so like someone said above, more weight = more grip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2013 12:06PM by Cosworth.

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Cosworth

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john vanlandingham
And how do we measure vertical load (loaded question)?

Vertical load => weight, so like someone said above, more weight = more grip.

yeah. And I am uh er familiar with what happens when the vertical load moves outside the limits of the car and the shiney side is not up....
Related to capsizing.

That's also the problem of language and context..and who we're talking with... What terms mean in context when talking with say the wife, a freind who know nuthin, a friend is know stuff but we're jus' talking, or an "injur-near', or a good engineer ? To each we speak a different language.
(I have actually known several good engineers---what marked them as "good engineers" for me is kinda what you were just talking about above.. They knew I know things about the vehicle---they would ask good short clear questions and pry the info out bit by bit, always checking the things most guys leave unstated, and they made it clear if I was saying something that didn't sound right, make sure we were using same terms for same things...so as an example, if I said weight---they wouldn't say "YOU MEAN MASS!!!!...
They accepted slang, but knowing who I'm talking to, I wouldn't speak like I would to say a surfer-dood from SoCal... then again not many surfer doods would understand common Swedish much less race-related problem solving...)

So interesting is this business of language, time and place that I've read piles of serious ass acedemic stuff on Socio-linguistics, semiotics (ah the works of the pillar, the great Umberto Eco such writing, such humor), and my favorite has to be Mikhail Mikhailovich Bakhtin's great book The Dialogic Imagination"..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So with your expeirence is the clubby guy more often the one running no sway bars or the one saying hook them up? Or is it totaly driver preferance?

I know in Evans case he used to run without bars then as he started posting better times he felt it was easier to post good times with bars then without.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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How about them bells? PM me or should I call?

Quote
Reamer
A driver comes in and says that sway bar change made the car have to much grip going into said corner...

Can you actually imagine a driver saying this?

---

First Rally: 2001
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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2013 12:53PM by Morison.

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Cosworth
How about them bells? PM me or should I call?

Phone is always better, and drawings sent email.
PMs get deleted too frequently.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Reamer
So with your expeirence is the clubby guy more often the one running no sway bars or the one saying hook them up? Or is it totaly driver preferance?

I know in Evans case he used to run without bars then as he started posting better times he felt it was easier to post good times with bars then without.

I don't have much experience with club level besides myself, so cant tell you what others do. As for Evans its simple physis, but since we don't know all the denominators in that equation we cant tell much, weight, springs, cg, etc... But at that point he's not looking for more grip, he's looking for handling characteristics.

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john vanlandingham
Somebody need to understand that the 2 worlds of gravel and tarmac have 2 seriously different overarching goals: Gravel is the search for grip; asphalt is the search for handling...

I was hoping to have actual measurements of the new-to-me shocks, but we went driving, instead, and had so much fun that we blew the ACD/AYC pump. sigh

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Iowa999

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john vanlandingham
Somebody need to understand that the 2 worlds of gravel and tarmac have 2 seriously different overarching goals: Gravel is the search for grip; asphalt is the search for handling...

???? WTF was this quoted for??? You trying to sound smart or something?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 10:19PM by Cosworth.

That was just a wee bit o' trolling. Pay it no mind.