I wouldn't get sad about the better gear thing; there's always better gear. Just figure how ideas transfer over, or dig back farther. If you want a technical first guess, start at similar one wheel rates but so it with just springs. If you want a less technical first guess, look at what guys on older suspension did. I suspect the numbers will be pretty similar either way. Worse comes to worst, bring different springs to try a step either way softer or harder, they're cheap enough.

....you realize that nothing matters other than driver confidence, right? You can copy Antoine's setup all day long and NEVER be as fast as he is....

Jay has it right here.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Quote
Tom B
....you realize that nothing matters other than driver confidence, right? You can copy Antoine's setup all day long and NEVER be as fast as he is....

Jay has it right here.

And that has been the message obvious to any all along. The car---as far as i can racall--is not a stage rally car, it will be used on grass-o-cross and "track days"... fuck it just drive the thing.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

edit: reply to Tom:

No, I was not aware that nothing else matters. The few times that I have been faster than drivers who are much better than I, simply because my cone-dodging car was darned good (if I say so myself), have made that hard for me to grasp.

More seriously, I know that there are lots of other things that are more important than the question that I am asking in this thread. And I respect the idea that there may be no answer to my question without taking many other things into account, including the fact that I am not smooth enough or experienced enough to drive a car that is optimized for any particular surface. And I'm very close to just saying "screw the theory and math" and put my best-guess springs on the Bilsteins from an MR and have a go.

But I'd still like to try to understand the trade-offs involved in using bars, if only to prepare myself (and the co-signer of my bank account, aka She Who Must Be Obeyed) for the possibility that the test set-up will be awful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 11:33AM by Iowa999.

Deadhead, if you are goibng to use pre-detrimined dampers, the gawddamn spings better match the dampers..
More correctly the dampers better match the spring...
What is the valving on the inserts and shocks you intend to use?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I would love to fuck up your world in a 2wd car on stage, its one of my favorite things to do to the 4wd contingent....and in comparison to Antoine I SUCK at driving.

NOTHING MATTERS.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Here's a thought on the role of roll stiffness. Some guys I know who do race engineering stuff in other disciplines were talking about weight transfer speed, and basically pointed out that the faster all the weight transfer is happening (stiffer, in other words) the harder the car's going to be to catch. I know the plural of "anecdote" ain't "data", but food for thought.

My experience matches the claim that excessive roll stiffness makes it harder to catch a car. The problem, for me, when cone-dodging at least, is that I needed said excessive roll stiffness because I was never planning ahead enough and was often scrambling to even start the turn. What happened mid-turn was to be dealt with later.

As to valving ... the Bilsteins from an MR are relatively easy to rebuild. While not every option is available, I was hoping that - to the extent that one can ever think of one half of the springs and shocks before the other - we could discuss the springs and bars (only) for now.

But, at this point, I'm getting the impression that I am asking for something that I will not get here, regardless of whether it exists. And that's sad.

Well, as we've sorta gotten into, the whole thing's a system. Honestly, for a first cut approximation, a gravel setup without sways and with stiffer springs (which we got into on the last thread as I recall; 280lb/in or something like that?) seems like a good place to start. You're going to get into things where you might want to play with spring rates from there to tune balance and stuff so, especially if you're doing venues where you have an opportunity to run the same course (didn't 'rallycross' come up at some point?) bring springs to try.

It's not sad, it's rally... which is like 50% problemsolving. You may however be very well looking for data that does not exist. How one side of the swaybar effects spring rate on that side of the car is going to depend on what's going on on the other side of the car, seems to me. Is one wheel in a pothole? Or up in the air? Who the hell knows? The only thing I know about swaybars is that they work to get rid of bodyroll by lifting a wheel. I am therefore no expert. But the more you flex one side the more the other wheel gets lifted. I don't think you can get any manner of "swaybar spring rate" data given those variables. So don't bother. See that a wheel that is lifted is a wheel that is not providing traction. Put enough damper and spring in the suspenders to keep the car off the bump stops most of the time and *go rally*. EvoX kinda on the heavy side maybe so I'd guess perhaps your springs are too soft. I think I ran 180/in. rear and 220/inch front on my old GTX. So it might be that your swaybars are Band-Aiding your springs at the moment. I wish I knew more about this shyte, all I know for sure is I was enough faster on the same roads in the same car without bars compared to with 'em that my current setup is 50mm bilstein/dms dampers and doubleprogressive springs as set up by Doivi Clarkkonnen and no swaybars in sight. Speaking of which you just might PM that feller. In contrast to, say frinstance, me, he knows what the fawk he's doing with this stuff. I just drive the car and you know what they say about the likes of them.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

edit: to Daniel:

Yep. That's where I am now: something in the 280 #/inch range, without bars, and just try it. But rallycross events are too few and far away (and not the best ratio of seat-time to total-time), so I actually do the testing on a friendly farmer's field and certain roads where I feel safe enough to do stupid things. I then go home to my garage to disconnect or reconnect swaybars, etc, then right back out to the same place. It's one of the few advantages of living in "fly-over" country.

to Jay:

140 #/inch aren't the springrates that I was planning to use. That's Antoine L'E's car and, as pointed out, I don't have his shocks or ability. I'm thinking 280 #/inch, instead.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 12:39PM by Iowa999.

When you're hooning--sorry, I mean "testing" in yon farmer's field, this is the place to collect data... use a sillyseat occupant and a stopwatch. The result is data you can actually use. I wish I had a friendly farmer field I could hoon I mean test in.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Quote
Iowa999
edit: to Daniel:

Yep. That's where I am now: something in the 280 #/inch range, without bars, and just try it. But rallycross events are too few and far away (and not the best ratio of seat-time to total-time), so I actually do the testing on a friendly farmer's field and certain roads where I feel safe enough to do stupid things. I then go home to my garage to disconnect or reconnect swaybars, etc, then right back out to the same place. It's one of the few advantages of living in "fly-over" country.

to Jay:

140 #/inch aren't the springrates that I was planning to use. That's Antoine L'E's car and, as pointed out, I don't have his shocks or ability. I'm thinking 280 #/inch, instead.

So you've decided on 280 spings---might reconsider before wasting time searching (and discussing why you NEEEEEEED! 280) and settle for 275 which you can get.
Now that that's nailed down, now: what valving do you intend to use to control the 275 spring..?

What travel?



(ducking!)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 01:55PM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
Iowa999
In the end, I'll probably just take the plunge and try something (by March), just to get the ball rolling, as it were. But this is still "silly season" for me, so I wanted to learn as much as possible before making a choice.

Ahem. If you get a break from your silly season could you mosey over to the Chemistry department and assure them that me offering free services as rally/pit crew should in no way impact their decision on whether or not to accept me as a PhD candidate... but it would be nice!

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

I'd love to help but just what is an EvoX? I ain't that far up the curve on modern 4x4 pish but presume it is some kind of Mitsibushi with a roman numeral denoting the model (10)?
I thought they all had active yaw control and and other "crap driver compensating sheit" on them from model 8 (sorry V111) onwards.

If it helps I have done a little autocross (that's rallycross to you merkuns), and tarmac track driving in my old VW Rocco.
The specs for the rear was cut the OEM springs in half and use some old seat belts as droop straps to stop them dislocating. The fronts involved carefully draining the piss thin oil from the original shocks, measuring the volume removed then replenshing the same amount with SAE 30 grade engine oil to firm up the dampening. Chucked on some cheap ass lowered springs and then went and drove as best I could.
With this "bespoke setup" and secondhand tyres, beatings have been handed out to an Escort 4x4 Cosworth rally car in the dirt, and also Fiesta ST racecars with pukka Dunlops and triple adjustable AST suspension, along with numerous Subarishis on the tarmac in the dry. And for balance I have also had my ass handed to me by many other types of cars.
So it just goes to show that all the scienz in the world does not mean quick times will automatically result due to cash spent. There's too many variables IMO and when you get it right for one instance, another will be compromised.

I do know some folks with adjustable dampening shocks would just disconnect the arbs and soften the shocks for wet or dirt, then reconnect arbs and stiffen the shocks for the dry. So would some kind of adjustable shock not be a better bet than a fixed rate seeing as the OP wishes dual use?

And talking of valving, is there a site or info for checking Bilstein valving rates from the insert part numbers. EG 0408V36 0215HO from a VW Golf Mk1front shock?

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Disappointingly not yet a Jackass