XR4Ti - Rally Car?

It's been almost 10 years since I took the financial plunge and got involved in rallying, albiet short lived.

I read a lot of interesting information about the XR4Ti, became innondated with knowledge about how great they were and all the parts that were available for them. It seemed as every newbie wandered in, they were pointed towards Volvo's and XR4Ti's.

I knew of the XR4Ti and it's cousin the Scorpio when they were new. At the time I had a hopped up Rabbit and tried to make headway on weekend mornings for the first run of fresh powder in Whistler. One time I was passed by an XR4Ti and was literally left doing redline shifts as it raced out of sight.

I forgot about the XR4Ti after that as it obscured into oblivion. That was until I signed up on specialstage and saw that it was being pushed as a favorable platform.

At one point I thought about building one but who was I kidding... building a rally car??? I didn't have the knowledge mechanically to do that. My grandfather maybe who was a mechanic first and foremost while owning a British Leyland dealership (back in the old country). I grew up around cars, the Triumph Stag and the Rover 3500 were a childhood favorites.

I'm in business and believe in providing people with what they need. No what I tell them is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but really what they need/want. Most of us are wannabe piston heads who just want to get out into the woods, drift sideways and drive fast. It's simple, we don't need the Ken Brock factory prepped car, or a Works car.

We just need something to go out and have fun. There's only money in the "sport" for a select few, so why kid ourselves. A reliable, safe, caged, shitbox, thats as fast as we can reasonable afford is all that someone needs to start out. If you can get it log booked and it passes tech, you're off and ready for your first count down at your first stage.

Simple, basic, logbooked... a great beginning!

I've seen a lot of guys get loaded up on XR4Ti parts for cars they were building that were never completed. It seems to be a pattern, and quite frankly it's a little sickening of all the money spent and dreams that came and went.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone but newbies should be aware of this monetary pitfall.

This thread is intended to help the unsuspecting, and will hopefully stimulate individual free thought in some who may otherwise be influenced by the written words of others.

Of all the posturing about the XR4Ti that I've seen in the past 10+ years, how many are rallying in North America?

Just food for thought!

What I've seen of this, and other hobbies, is the Rally is filled with a range of people.

There are some who are fabricators and 'welding something up' is as natural as breathing. For them, the build is probably as much fun as being on the stages. Maybe more fun.

There are some who are competitors for whom the thought of even changing their own oil is really too much to ask. (maybe not from a skills standpoint, but from a use of time.)

Finally, there are some who are a mix of the two. (Not saying you can't have all of both - a natural fabricator AND a good driver, I've seen a few examples of that.)

I think there is merit in building your own car - even if you sub-out the cage or other 'important' bits. Being able to diagnose, troubleshoot and 'invent' a repair on the roadside needs a certain intimacy with the car. If you've built it you'll understand it a bit better than if you just tore it down and put it back together.

I also think there is merit in buying a used, logbooked, stage car. Already depreciated, ready to go, you can generally get most of your money back out if you buy right and don't ball it up (or if you buy really right and part it out after balling it up [cough]adam[/cough]

At the end of the day, as many correctly point out, the driver is the one who is winning clubbie stages in North America, not the car. I generally agree there is a wee bit too much self gratification over the spec of some car builds. A lot of focus on the right this or that and building it 'just so...' but I'm not a fabricator and likely won't ever be.

Just remember that for some, life without a 'project car' in progress is incomplete.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I think there has always been an issue with un-completed projects. Rally seems to draw a lot of low income people who think it is easy to just toss together a car and get out in the woods. Maybe because the cars are simple compared to a NASCAR or Indy car. I've built at least 4 cages over the years that never got on stage. No idea what ever happened to the people...just vanished.

The Merkur and Volvo are Johns dream. They are what he is familiar with and a large part of his business plan. Problem is with the age of the cars, the mods required to bring to full competitve status and the cost. Since I've been in the game I've seen 2 Merkurs on a stage in person. Only a couple Volvos also.

I think the logical choices in todays market are the Civic, Golf, BMW and Subaru. Current cars, current knowledge and support, current wrecking yard parts, current interest from sponsors, friends, media and the population in general.

Go on Craigslist and look under boats. There are always project boats for sale. Uncompleted hulls needing re-powers, stringers, tanks, transoms, wiring, interiors any number of issues. I've seen hulls rebuilt and new engines and outdrives sitting beside them. Owner lost interest, money, time or god knows what. Just the way it is.

i opted for a really really grandfathered car but it was of a car i know all too well, the Rx7. I have been pleased with it, even with a carb part loosening and grenading the engine. Its old sure, but there are six in the local junkyard. shells are usually free if you ask hard enough and above all, I know them. Sadly though, I'm on the tall side and the next rally car may or may not be an Rx7. Hell not even sure you could fit a new cage in one...

I've seriously considering the 318ti for rally car 3.0, but i do already have a merkur hanging out on my driveway. Bmw part prices do kinda turn me off some...

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
Gravity Fed
i opted for a really really grandfathered car but it was of a car i know all too well, the Rx7. I have been pleased with it, even with a carb part loosening and grenading the engine. Its old sure, but there are six in the local junkyard. shells are usually free if you ask hard enough and above all, I know them. Sadly though, I'm on the tall side and the next rally car may or may not be an Rx7. Hell not even sure you could fit a new cage in one...

I've seriously considering the 318ti for rally car 3.0, but i do already have a merkur hanging out on my driveway. Bmw part prices do kinda turn me off some...

I went and checkout a 'full bolt on' 325 over the weekend. $1k for the full drivetrain and wiring swap (excluding rear diff since it doesn't fit). Included chip, conforti intake, ebay headers and full 2.5" exhaust. Water pump had been upgraded and several seals on the engine had been recently replaced. Engine fired up in 15 degree weather and purred like a champ.

For reference I was $800 into my Compact after selling the engine + $3000 for full M3 drivetrain swap. By learning/knowing these cars better and being able to wait for good deals to pop up (car with blown motor), our first Compact customer is now just $1400 into his project car. Its only as expensive as you need it to be...and what did I get for the extra $2400 - maybe 15-20hp. Live and learn I guess.

Dave

Morten.
It's not exclusive to XR4ti's or Volvos. There are at least four Golfs that are just sitting that I know of. There are at least three Subarus that are MIA, owners bought them, haven't heard from them since. One Eagle Talon that disappeared a few years back that I've been keeping an eye out for. Four open class Subarus, a few Group 5 Neons, and two or three Hondas just sitting in various states of disregard/prep.
Just because John makes the XR4ti and Volvo cars VISIBLE and urges people to build them doesn't mean there's a plethora of them sitting.
Skye's car - Sitting midprep.
My car - Competed, torn down for reprep, sitting.
Medcrofts - ready to rally
Smith's - ready to rallyish?
McLeery's - ready to rally.
Chevalier's - getting ready to rally.
Two Canadian cars, one prepped, one mid prep have disappeared from my radar.
One Canadian car mid-prep I think.
One US based car that disappeared, but cage was 90s and likely not legal. Pretty sure car was bought for YB engine and likely parted and crushed. Last seen in midwest 9 years or so ago so probably rusted to ground if not scrapped.
I think that is about it for CAGED Merkurs. With the exception of Skye's and Paddy's Canadian car, neither of which were completed, there hasn't been a Merkur caged correctly that hasn't seen a stage at some point.

BMWs are cool. I've been selling the idea of them based on the ease of getting the cars, parts, decent power stock, G2 eligible, etc. But don't fool yourself. My Merkur has WAY more potential than any BMW ever will and when finished will have the ability to challenge and take the overall 2WD win any day, any event and LESS likely to DNF due to a limitation of the car/mechanical.

---

Grant Hughes

What he said. With the Merkur, you don't need to go all out on suspension like I did, you would be hard pressed to kill the stock arms on a stage. Mine was rallied with just JVAB struts and rear coilovers for the first 2 rallies. $100 rear brake swap to discs. And it was good. I went all crazy on stuff because I could. Are they the best choice? No. But if you want strong, cheap, reliable, and capable of upgrades to the highest spec, then there are not too many other cars out there.

Easy to drive, yes. Balanced, extremely. Fun, of course. What else is there?

Quote
NoCoast
My Merkur has WAY more potential than any BMW ever will and when finished will have the ability to challenge and take the overall 2WD win any day, any event and LESS likely to DNF due to a limitation of the car/mechanical.

That's a pretty bold claim coming from a guy who got scared into re-prepping said merkur at the thought of a Compact getting built.

Not saying you don't have some pretty rad parts for the Merkur, but comparing a chump car build to what you've done with the Merkur is hardly fair. Take that same $25k spent wisely* and you'd have a BMW that could stomp your Merkur and you'd be able to replace a front fender with a few bolts instead of an afternoon with a spot weld drill bit.

Don't believe me...finish the Merkur and we'll do some back-to-back comparisons at CORE. I've got a GPS based datalogging system we can plug into either car on short order, so we can sorta take the guesswork out of it.

Dave
*notice I didn't say my car...lots of $$ not spent wisely there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 04:45PM by DaveK.

for me, i do already HAVE a running Xr4ti, and i have driven it... a lot. But i have never driven a compact, let alone on dirt, so I have some apprehension in changing it up, but i can not deny that BMWs litter junk yards these days. Power is about the same, but requires no turbo, etc.

Dave, come race Idaho this year. Solely so i can take your car for spin

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
DaveK
That's a pretty bold claim coming from a guy who got scared into re-prepping said merkur at the thought of a Compact getting built.

Actually it was a desire to do events and Rally Colorado being dropped meant at least 1000 mile tows and I didn't trust the things I hadn't touched with a $3000+ weekend.

Quote
DaveK
Not saying you don't have some pretty rad parts for the Merkur, but comparing a chump car build to what you've done with the Merkur is hardly fair. Take that same $25k spent wisely* and you'd have a BMW that could stomp your Merkur and you'd be able to replace a front fender with a few bolts instead of an afternoon with a spot weld drill bit.

I'm not comparing it to a Chumpcar build. We can compare it to any of them. Derik's, Hintz's, Bradenburg's, Jari's, Gardemeister's, etc. Colin McLeery's XR4ti has something like 35 events and 2 mechanical DNFs. Derik and Hintz both had DNFs last year, both due to weaknesses in the BMW package. Though both are things you have done differently with the Compact so it may be that you'll be okay.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
Gravity Fed
for me, i do already HAVE a running Xr4ti, and i have driven it... a lot. But i have never driven a compact, let alone on dirt, so I have some apprehension in changing it up, but i can not deny that BMWs litter junk yards these days. Power is about the same, but requires no turbo, etc.

About the same till you slap a turbo or light pressure blower on it and make it a proper G5 car. Of course the other option is a newer 3.2 that'll make 330hp as delivered from the factory. I'm intentionally holding off on power mods to see how competitive the car can be as-is, then decide if another 50hp is enough or if 150 more would help. Pretty sure I know what the right way to go for gravel is...but with 450whp at a tarmac rally, I think the car could fight for overall wins.

Quote
Gravity Fed
Dave, come race Idaho this year. Solely so i can take your car for spin

Would love to, but the past couple years its been too close on the calendar to PPIHC so I usually find myself wrenching on the Evo instead. I ran Idaho the first year in my GTX when it was all tarmac and have been itching to get back. Who knows, there's still time.

Dave

we do have a tow fun!

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
NoCoast
I'm not comparing it to a Chumpcar build. We can compare it to any of them. Derik's, Hintz's, Bradenburg's, Jari's, Gardemeister's, etc. Colin McLeery's XR4ti has something like 35 events and 2 mechanical DNFs. Derik and Hintz both had DNFs last year, both due to weaknesses in the BMW package. Though both are things you have done differently with the Compact so it may be that you'll be okay.

Fair enough - but you do need to compare apples to apples. McLeery's car runs a mustang engine and based on what I saw at PPIHC, he wasn't attempting to light the world on fire like Derik and Hintz do. Speaking of DNFs, were both of those BMW DNFs related to rear suspension failures? I seem to remember one was a lost spring...was that due to a sheared off suspension mounting point or am I mixing things up?

What car do you think is faster, your merkur just before the teardown or my compact? Merkur obviously had much better brakes, suspension on both was both JVAB. Power...not sure exactly what your car was making but the engine in mine would likely be about 250 at the crank at sea level. Both probably had about the same amount of money dumped in, wasted, etc.

Dave

Quote
DaveK
Fair enough - but you do need to compare apples to apples. McLeery's car runs a mustang engine and based on what I saw at PPIHC, he wasn't attempting to light the world on fire like Derik and Hintz do. Speaking of DNFs, were both of those BMW DNFs related to rear suspension failures? I seem to remember one was a lost spring...was that due to a sheared off suspension mounting point or am I mixing things up?

What car do you think is faster, your merkur just before the teardown or my compact? Merkur obviously had much better brakes, suspension on both was both JVAB. Power...not sure exactly what your car was making but the engine in mine would likely be about 250 at the crank at sea level. Both probably had about the same amount of money dumped in, wasted, etc.

McLeery ran the 2.3L up until recently. And yeah, he doesn't exactly light the world on fire either.
Nelson's DNF was due to dual mass flywheel or something like that.

The Merkur when I was able to run full boost was much faster. Of course, I had problems keeping it from overheating and had to run 1/2 boost most of the time, partly due to the huge skid plate. The final drive blew though and it ran out of steam.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
The Merkur when I was able to run full boost was much faster. Of course, I had problems keeping it from overheating and had to run 1/2 boost most of the time, partly due to the huge skid plate. The final drive blew though and it ran out of steam.

Full boost - like when the boost controller was hooked up backwards and the wastegate never opened? Still can't believe it didn't blow up!

Any chance you remember times from Temple Canyon or Land's End? I got fairly close to Papa Con's record at Grand Junction but the road wasn't nearly as good as it was the year he set that record (as evidenced by how far off Regester was from the record I set in the Evo in 2008). Damn, maybe I do need to figure out how to bolt that blower to the Compact...for hillclimbs only, yeah, that's the ticket.

Dave