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frumby
What Gene said. Either there are hidden motives (conspiracy), or this group is not only poorly informed, but arrogant and stubborn. Bottom line is that the new rules are flat WRONG, accomplish nothing, destroy plenty. But they aren't listening. They don't answer emails, and they don't look here or elsewhere for input. Their ears are covered while the say lalalalala loudly enough that they can pretend they hear nothing but agreement.
I recently drove a rental V6 mustang for a month. Car was a piece of crap, but with a standard transmission, some tighter suspension and about nothing else it would be a fast car. You wouldn't need to change a thing on that v6 to have enough power on dirt.

Yep..

oh re Moose-angst; maybe shed 1000 lbs wink wink

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The big damn thing that always gets me about rally regs on this continent are the engine rules. How anyone can talk about bringing down cost and limiting power as a necessity while at the same time having no engine regs other than displacement limits or restrictors boggles my mind. I mean awesome, a 2.5L 4 banger? I'll just pop out and get a used Millington Diamond then, that's affordable right? Or is a used ex-Atlantic Duratec more in the spirit of the rules? The counterargument that 2wd imposes limits on how much power is useful makes it even worse - I mean, if that's the case, then why even have displacement limits or turbo restrictors for 2wd?

It just seems kinda schizo. If you wanted rules that restricted what power output somebody with infinite money would have, you'd have something like SCCA's IT classes, where no internal work on the engine was allowed. If you wanted rules that said that there's no point in huge power numbers and it was okay for low budget guys to get to that, you'd have no restrictors and biggish displacement allowed. Instead, the rules produced seem to be saying "nope, it's only okay to have 'enough' power if you can throw big bucks at it". WTF?

Daniel, you hit it on the head when you said 'why even have displacement limits or restrictors'. Open 2wd should be just that. Open. Up to you if you want to buy a used Atlantic engine for your Corolla or stick with a stock Lima in your Xratty, or prove you can be just as fast in a barely warmed over Rabbit. Manufacturers could still build awesome cars if they were interested (enough money and a turbo 1.3 could go fast), and the little guys could still build as little or as much as they wanted with the option for real power cheaply.

I truly don't understand the guys here who are 'in the know' with CARS standing up for them. The opposition is just deafening, and the support is truly feeble. These are the guys who could be going to CARS and saying 'look, we need to revisit this, even if it makes us look bad'.

Agreed! I guess changing the rules the way they did would be easier for me to understand if ONE example of a 2WD car that broke the legal average speed for a stage could be brought forth. I can't fault them for wanting to make one class out of the two 2WD classes, but why make it all g2 instead of all g5? Or whatever. Let he who DOESN'T want to see some 500hp 2WD madness throw the first stone. Answer me that, Keith!

G2 and G5 can be combined right now! It's called Open 2wd. No engine rules. Spend as little or as much as you want. It will be proven that a car that weighs little and has 150hp can run with anything. And the 500hp car will be awesome and mostly not go faster. Easy.

Or have a less open class if that's what's really wanted and what's really necessary (I don't think it is but whatever) but if they (the organizers) are going to do that, either do it in a way that spending cubic dollars doesn't get you advantages or don't talk about cost savings and increasing competition. Or fuck, do like NASA roadracing stuff does in a lot of classes and specify a power/weight; submit a dyno sheet at some point in the proceedings and so on. There's all sorts of solutions pioneered by organizations where people *will* throw shitloads of money at stuff to try to eke out a percieved advantage... there's all sorts of examples of what works and doesn't work if you want to limit power or reduce costs, why not look at them?

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frumby
Because the The opposition is just deafening, and the support is truly feeble.

Funny thing is this isn't actually true. The opposition may be loud but it is shallow, it is truly a case of the vocal minority thinking they represent the silent majority. We've even heard of Gr2 drivers who support the idea of restricting forced induction cars choosing to stay quiet because of the tone set by those strongly voicing their thoughts.

Quote
frumby
These are the guys who could be going to CARS and saying 'look, we need to revisit this, even if it makes us look bad'.

What makes you think this isn't what's happening.
The beauty of the CLUB based system is that the sanctioning body is, ultimately, accountable to the Clubs.
The downside is that decisions are made by a board of directors, which is an agonizingly slow process. Reversing decisions, which has been done even more so.

I got involved at the board level to increase accountability and transparency and it has taken six years to see a number of improvements, but there is still further to go.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Well, selfishly, since none of this effects Big White I'm not too excitable. I just don't really understand it.

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Slowwpoke
Answer me that, Keith!

So demanding...

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Slowwpoke
I guess changing the rules the way they did would be easier for me to understand if ONE example of a 2WD car that broke the legal average speed for a stage could be brought forth.

Except that the restrictions on G5 cars has nothing to do with 2wd cars breaking the max average speed and everything to do with equalizing the potential performance with Gr2 cars.
You're saying something like 'if they could show one example of an eye being poked out by a hockey stick then I'd understand what athletic cups are required.'

Quote
Slowwpoke
I can't fault them for wanting to make one class out of the two 2WD classes, but why make it all g2 instead of all g5?

Because the majority of our 2wd competitors are Gr2.
If we look at the championship entries we'll see a pattern.
(I've included PSport as a comparison since most people seem to think it is a stupid class that no-one should be interested in)

Quebec - 0 Gr5 (by regulation) / 8 Gr2 / 8 PSport (2011, can't find 2012 standings)
OPRC: 5 Gr5 / 13 Gr2 / 4 PSport
WCRC: 4 Gr5 / 7 Gr2 / 3 PSport
CRC: 5 Gr5 / 17 Gr 2 / 5 PSport

Those are just lists of the number of people who entered a single event. If you were to look at the total entries in each class per season

CRC: 7 - Gr5 / 29 Gr2 / 8 PSport

So when more than 3x the number of people have entered at least one event in a G2 car than have in a Gr5 car and Gr2 represents more than 4x the number of entries than Gr5 does, why wouldn't you reccognise Gr2 as being the common denominator that it is?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2013 03:37PM by Morison.

Quote
frumby
The opposition is just deafening, and the support is truly feeble.

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Morison
Funny thing is this isn't actually true. The opposition may be loud but it is shallow, it is truly a case of the vocal minority thinking they represent the silent majority. We've even heard of Gr2 drivers who support the idea of restricting forced induction cars choosing to stay quiet because of the tone set by those strongly voicing their thoughts.

Yeah Morison, shallow. All these guys you know that their plans are all shallow:
Er, uhm.

1-Kevin Zidkovitch in Alberta with a 2300T 8v
2-Martin Walter, Ontario, 2.0 bone stock SR20DET
3-Tim Chevalier, Nude Hampster 2300T 8v near the border.
4-Alex Staidle, Idaho, looking North...2.0 turbo, and already planning next car 2300T 8v
5-Pat Derow, Portland OR, was planning on BC events 2100T 8v
6-Arno Guerin, Seattle WA was planning on BC events 2300T 8v
7-Sean Medcroft, Seattle WA, definitely previously intending BC events, 2300T 8v
8-Tom Burress, Seattle WA, spent much making his 2.0 turbo work, no way start over, so no BC events
9-Ian Seppanen, Duluth Minn, was planning Ontario events, believe was thinking 2400T
10-Mark Hille, Conneticut, was longing for Ontario and Quebec events, 2300t 8v
11-Trenton Haglund which should be Hagglund Minnesota , formerly advised to look at Ontario, 2300T 8v
12-John Bass, in Misery or Missouri, straight up North..no more 2300T 8v
13-Grant Hughes, Denver...oh well. 2300T 8v
14-Dave Kern, Denver 3.0 BMW 6
15-Dave Hintz, 3.0 BMW 6 More or less Seattle, only a few miles from BC
16-Derek whassisname Seattle, BMW 3.0 6
17-Charles Buren, Portland, 5.0 V8
18-Jason Hynd, Whidbey Island, WA...Xratty 2300T 8v even closer to BC
19- ACP , demi-Canadienne in his 2.4 fwd thing......
20- The guys who bought Wassis name adam's nice Xratty 2300T 8v from Ontario
21-the other partner who bought Ian"s "Panache" replica Xratty 2300T 8v from Ontario

And those were just a quick think thru...

You're shallow Morison, that is your major malfuction.
You're shallow and provincial in the worst possible way..
I doubt you have talked to even one of these guys.

MOST of them are silent too, because they all have said "What's the point arguing with THOSE guys?"

And EVERY one who says they have emailed ALL said they fgot no response.

Silent to YOU because you and your crew have your hands over your ears and you know the drill:

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Yeah Morison, shallow. All these guys you know that their plans are all shallow:

Fer fuck's sake.
Shallow as in not many bothered to contact CARS with concerns. As in really only a few people who were loudly voicing their opposition.

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john vanlandingham
A list of cars that will all be able to be rallied in Canada for the foreseeable future.

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john vanlandingham
And EVERY one who says they have emailed ALL said they fgot no response.

I call bullshit on this because I have seen responses to many of the emails the emails that were sent in. Some fell through the cracks because they were sent to 15 people, so each of the 15 assumed one of the others responded.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Yeah Morison, shallow. All these guys you know that their plans are all shallow:

Fer fuck's sake.
Shallow as in not many bothered to contact CARS with concerns. As in really only a few people who were loudly voicing their opposition.

Quote
john vanlandingham
A list of cars that will all be able to be rallied in Canada for the foreseeable future.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And EVERY one who says they have emailed ALL said they fgot no response.

I call bullshit on this because I have seen responses to many of the emails the emails that were sent in. Some fell through the cracks because they were sent to 15 people, so each of the 15 assumed one of the others responded.

Call them liars to their face, tough guy... It's clear you don't actually respect anybody and maybe that's why there were 10-20 times as much posting top the SS thread than any other Canadian thread ever...people were pissed at the clear bullshit you and tech guy and Dascollas were dribbling out edited of all content...

And you keep twisting and parsing the truth we all know. Sure a gang of your buddies decided they can rally their 2wd cars---just not in the class they themselves want to but what you and your crew decided to shove them into....

Morison, your credibility is below zero, as is your buddy the "Tech Guy".

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Yeah Morison, shallow. All these guys you know that their plans are all shallow:

Fer fuck's sake.
Shallow as in not many bothered to contact CARS with concerns. As in really only a few people who were loudly voicing their opposition.

Quote
john vanlandingham
A list of cars that will all be able to be rallied in Canada for the foreseeable future.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And EVERY one who says they have emailed ALL said they fgot no response.

I call bullshit on this because I have seen responses to many of the emails the emails that were sent in. Some fell through the cracks because they were sent to 15 people, so each of the 15 assumed one of the others responded.

That's quite the fuck up if 15 people received emails and not one of them responded because they thought one of the other 14 had responded. Not much structure eh? (US translation - Huh?)

So for the sake of said fuck up never being repeated, how about you mention who or which person/people should be the recipeint(s) in order to facilitate a response to every email sent.

That would be good information, just sayin'.

I'm just a single data point, but the email sent was to one person, it was well structured, thought out, and respectful.. And I received no reply.
Here's what we want: the option to have a powerful (enough) car that's easy to service and FUN. Restrictors ruin the power of nice cheap turbo engines. I doubt there are many G2 players who are worried about restricting the g5 cars for parity. If there are lets hear from them!

As a moderator, I am closing this thread.
Other moderators can still post but will go straight to sin bin if any more discussion about CARS being taken over by a hoard of nambly pambly dissuade boys in group 2 cars.

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Grant Hughes