Quote
john vanlandingham
Call them liars to their face, tough guy...

Sigh... I forgot I have to be crystal clear about basic communications with you John.
I was calling bullshit on 'every' and 'all.' I understand that several people didn't get replies and that's not right, they should have been responded to, if only a 'thanks for the note, we're looking into it.'
But, the way you present it strongly suggests that nobody who wrote to CARS got a response and I know for a fact that isn't true.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And you keep twisting and parsing the truth we all know. Sure a gang of your buddies decided they can rally their 2wd cars---just not in the class they themselves want to but what you and your crew decided to shove them into...

Talk about twisting and parsing the truth...
Group 5 continues as a national class for two more years ... at least.
Group 5 will continue indefinitely in the ontario and western regional championships.

If you actually believe that "...the National 'series' has always been a lame distraction and a waste of effort and money" then what is the problem with Gr5 being a regional only class if you can still get the same stage distance for the same money as the national guys?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
frumby
I'm just a single data point, but the email sent was to one person, it was well structured, thought out, and respectful.. And I received no reply.
Here's what we want: the option to have a powerful (enough) car that's easy to service and FUN. Restrictors ruin the power of nice cheap turbo engines. I doubt there are many G2 players who are worried about restricting the g5 cars for parity. If there are lets hear from them!

Shouldn't have happened. Can you PM me who sent the email to (and/or the address) or even post it here if you want to 'out' the recipient? I'm kind of curious about who didn't respond and might be able to figure out why.
None the less, it isn't right and you should have had at least a courtesy repsonse.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Call them liars to their face, tough guy...

Sigh... I forgot I have to be crystal clear about basic communications with you John.
I was calling bullshit on 'every' and 'all.' I understand that several people didn't get replies and that's not right, they should have been responded to, if only a 'thanks for the note, we're looking into it.'
But, the way you present it strongly suggests that nobody who wrote to CARS got a response and I know for a fact that isn't true.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And you keep twisting and parsing the truth we all know. Sure a gang of your buddies decided they can rally their 2wd cars---just not in the class they themselves want to but what you and your crew decided to shove them into...

Talk about twisting and parsing the truth...
Group 5 continues as a national class for two more years ... at least.
Group 5 will continue indefinitely in the ontario and western regional championships.

If you actually believe that "...the National 'series' has always been a lame distraction and a waste of effort and money" then what is the problem with Gr5 being a regional only class if you can still get the same stage distance for the same money as the national guys?

You just don't get the most basic thing: people don't like other people discriminating against THEM because of what things they have..

If THEY want to enter the "national" and compete against cars that performe witgh the same basic drive train configuration--to wit 2wd---then they should be able to deicde, not you and not the Tech guy who admitted he doesn't build motors, gearboxes axles or understand anything about them and their costs and advantages..

And they don't like being forcesd to spend thousands just to satisfy your and your buddies whim to saddle OPEN 2wd with restrictors.

Especially SMALLER RESTRICTORS than Open 4wd

Justify that one difference..
Thouisands of words from you and the other troublemakers and not a single comprehensible word on why one OPEN class should be MORE restrictive than the other OPEN class.

Again the troll-fu is strong.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You just don't get the most basic thing

How about something really basic that you seem to not grasp.
I didn't decide any of this
All I really do is try and share the thought process and reasoning that went into the decisions. I don't always agree with them.

Quote
john vanlandingham
If THEY want to enter the "national" and compete against cars that performe witgh the same basic drive train configuration--to wit 2wd---then they should be able to deicde...

And they can.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Especially SMALLER RESTRICTORS than Open 4wd
Justify that one difference.

It's been said, repeatedly, that open class is expected to move to a 32mm restrictor in coming years. The move wasn't done immediately because CARS wanted to try and get RA/NASA on board with mofing to 32 at the same time. Many more open cars cross border compete than Gr5 cars do.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Thouisands

Guess you didn't get your spellchecker to work...

Quote
john vanlandingham
of words from you and the other troublemakers and not a single comprehensible word on why one OPEN class should be MORE restrictive than the other OPEN class.

Again, you are distorting and misrepresenting things.
The explanation above has been given repeatedly.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Again the troll-fu is strong.

I'm the one trying to have a reasonable conversation about this. You're the one distorting the facts, hurling insults and name-calling.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I think Canadia totally feared that Will Orders would go north and beat their AWD guys with his Silvia. So outlaw G5 in nationals and then to make double damn sure you put a small restrictor on the allowable 2wd cars.

You don'y want to slow the fast cars first and have them get beat by the 2wd guys.

Quote
Morison
Funny thing is this isn't actually true. The opposition may be loud but it is shallow, it is truly a case of the vocal minority thinking they represent the silent majority. We've even heard of Gr2 drivers who support the idea of restricting forced induction cars choosing to stay quiet because of the tone set by those strongly voicing their thoughts.

Are any of them actually competitive? Or, are they just a bunch of weenies?

How many of them were beaten by G5 cars? -- I imagine a few of them were

How many of them were beaten by G2 cars? -- I imagine ALL of them were

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2013 09:22PM by Josh Wimpey.

I really hate the setting of precedence. Sure, G5 can still run out west for a few hearsay bla bla bla (consolation prize). Look, take a fun 200hp turbo car (Xratty or the new Subaru Brz, slap a 32mm restrictor on it and it turns into a horrible dog even on the street. Heck, the 34mm restrictor does that. Now you have to spend $$ to get the motor to be fun again, not even competitive.
Now, I understand restrictors on Open AWD. They suck, but I see why hp needs to be checked. We 2wds are already TRACTION restricted. Would anyone say a hot NA civic running g2 with a 2.0 250 hp motor and a good transmission be at a power disadvantage to a 300 hp hotted up XR with no restrictor? Nobody would say that in any class. How about a 400hp Neon SRT or Mazdaspeed? Most people in the know at all would consider that a wash also (except in the most extreme cases of long straight roads). We saw that several times when a certain Mazdaspeed was competing in Max Attack).

Whatever... Hey, I did autocross years ago in Florida. Very chill, just show up basically. Thought I might do that here in HI since there's nothing else. Read the local 'rules'. Terrible. There are so many restrictions (even down to requiring crew members to purchase food from vendors and not bring their own) that I won't be doing that. Rally is feeling more and more the same. Less rules is more! Lets get every car out there! Let's encourage that guy with a 2005 mustang and the guy with the 75 Volvo turbo. Again, I'm worried about the precedence set in Canada rubbing off in the US.

Keith... so CARS has has had relationship with Subaru for 20+ years?

What other manufacturers have had relationships with CARS?

I'm curious because if it is exclusive, it's difficult to beleive that Subaru has zero influence on decisions made.

Imagine Gr5 cars beating a large amount of Subaru AWD cars.

Restrictors, displacement, etc... are all in essence sense of control.

Safety? I call bull shit!

I could buy an STI, mod it and be able to put down how much HP/Ft. Torque and drive fast on the stages?

Eliminating the fast older RWD cars helps to let the Title Sponsers Shine.

It seems like "all" business!

Quote
RWD4ME
Keith... so CARS has has had relationship with Subaru for 20+ years?

What other manufacturers have had relationships with CARS?

I'm curious because if it is exclusive, it's difficult to beleive that Subaru has zero influence on decisions made.

Imagine Gr5 cars beating a large amount of Subaru AWD cars.

Restrictors, displacement, etc... are all in essence sense of control.

Safety? I call bull shit!

I could buy an STI, mod it and be able to put down how much HP/Ft. Torque and drive fast on the stages?

Eliminating the fast older RWD cars helps to let the Title Sponsers Shine.

It seems like "all" business!

You know drengen, you may have been born at night, but it sure wasn't last night.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
RWD4ME
Keith... so CARS has has had relationship with Subaru for 20+ years?
What other manufacturers have had relationships with CARS?

Mitsubishi was involved with a contingency program but stopped short of getting involved directly with the championship. So competitors got payouts, events got sponsorship and CARS got a token fee to manage the payouts.

Quote
RWD4ME
I'm curious because if it is exclusive...

There is no exclusivity in either of the partnership agreements. In fact, Subaru WANTS to see other brands involved in the championship.

Quote
RWD4ME
..it's difficult to beleive that Subaru has zero influence on decisions made.

Why? Being seen as 'buying' rule changes doesn't do anything positive for PR.

Quote
RWD4ME
Imagine Gr5 cars beating a large amount of Subaru AWD cars.

Why imagine it when we've seen it? Hell, we've seen a production sport car beat AWD Subarus!

Quote
RWD4ME
Safety? I call bull shit!

In what context?
Nobody but JVL has said that restrictors on Gr5 cars were a safety initiative.

Quote
RWD4ME
Eliminating the fast older RWD cars helps to let the Title Sponsers Shine.

LOL - they don't need, or want, that kind of help.
Back when Can Jam ran the Subaru Canada team they would help anyone and everyone who had problems in service.

They understand what 'rally' is about and that is one of the reasons they value being involved in it.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2013 01:15AM by Morison.

so then i ask in jest, how are we supposed to know what to build? If the Merkur i have doesnt sell in the coming weeks, I considered using it as rally car 3.0 (now with more headroom!) but with all this talk of restrictors and whatnot...

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
RWD4ME
....
Imagine Gr5 cars beating a large amount of Subaru AWD cars.

.....

Eliminating the fast older RWD cars helps to let the Title Sponsers Shine.

It seems like "all" business!

Nonsense, the G5 cars have to beat the G2 cars first --- and they don't --- which is the whole point of this argument about the stupid rules changes. Well driven G5 & G2 cars regularly beat most of the subies at most events already so the rules clearly aren't for helping out Subaru.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

I have quite a bit of 2wd experience..and success with that platform. I've rallied FWD (not so well) and RWD from 70hp to about 300 hp. I was consistantly at the front of the local pack and in the top 10 OA of the nationals back then. Buffum and Millen days. I even won a Canadian event OA. There might be a couple of guys here that are faster but likely none that were quicker (there is a difference btw...I hated going over 100mph on stage) . Grant Whiting, John Cristensen, Tim Patterson, Kevin Gordham, Mark Qvale, Sean Tennis, Sam Bryant and a few others were always fast and everyone was kept honest. I have boxes of dust catchers down stairs somewhere. It was fun. Not everyone showed up to every event but you knew at the start there would always be a battle for the top 5 spots. Now tires are maybe a bit better these days and so is the suspension but other than that 2wd is 2wd. I beat the exact same guys with a 140hp Datsun as I did with the 300hp RX7. I was never beat by a faster car until I dropped down to the under 100hp RallyLite car. I could still post top 5 stages on flat twisty stuff but uphills and 100plus were agonizing. At that point there were a couple more powerful cars with lesser drivers that could just run away.

So let me repeat...I was never beaten by faster cars until I drove a sub 100 hp (1500cc NA car). I never worried about Grant's rotary or Qvales turbo, never entered my mie. When they beat me it was because they beat me. I lost events to both those guys and yet could put 30 seconds a stage on them sometimes (twisty stuff). All of us spanked the early GTX and Talon products back then. At least the PGT trim cars tht showed up. No one ever dreamed of touching Buffum or Millen but many of the others were fair game. I don't think anyone ever bitched about getting beaten by xxx xxxx because his car was faster or 2600 cc or tuboed, least no COMPTETITOR ever bitched.

The whole premise of the CARS decision based on leveling the class is flawed, faulty and f'd up. Sure once the decision was made I imagine some of the slower WEASELS came out in support. Easy then, its called passive aggressive, not their idea and they'd never have balls to start such a concept but they'll quietly support CARS in eliminating some of the compettition for them.

2WD is every bit traction limited on proper gravel roads. 2WD is currently monetary limited due to a lack of interest. 2WD is very much talent governed. ACP is fast, Orders is fast. Both of those guys can and have run at the very top in AWD cars also. If a guy in a high powered 2wd beats a well powered 2WD ..he flat beat him. Nothing more. Either car will pretty much spin the tires thru 3rd gear easily. 4th gear changes a bit, the lesser car will accelerate while the more powerful car will need to be back pedaled to gain traction..driven well...

Honestly the field can be limited with displacement or induction but the cream will still rise. The same fast guys will win (if they don't get pissed and quit). The same slower guys will be 5th or 6th. Nothing will change in the long run. Well except for the collateral damage. There will be mid-pack guys who move up a spot or two because someone got discouraged or mad and left. There will be guys who leave. The sport will suffer, it won't collapse but when you l;ose competitors you lose fans, workers, sponsors and dollars.

Nothing I've seen says G5 cars WILL be allowed in the future in Regionals, I've read they MAY be allowed. Not the same, nor does that make any sense at all.

Quote
heymagic
I think Canadia totally feared that Will Orders would go north and beat their AWD guys with his Silvia. So outlaw G5 in nationals and then to make double damn sure you put a small restrictor on the allowable 2wd cars.

You don'y want to slow the fast cars first and have them get beat by the 2wd guys.

Will Orders is an AWESOME competitor and I will personally put up $50 Cdn towards his entry if he makes it to PFR 2013. Same offer goes to Cody Crane.

Anthony Latham
WCRA Club Secretary
tony (at) rallybc (d0t) com

---

2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2013 01:37PM by AnthonyLatham.

Quote
heymagic

Nothing I've seen says G5 cars WILL be allowed in the future in Regionals, I've read they MAY be allowed. Not the same, nor does that make any sense at all.

Hi Gene,

RPM voted to maintain Group 5 past 2014 at its Feb meeting. We did this to align with Rally West and maintain the class structure for the Western Canadian Rally Championship. Once the minutes are adopted I will post the link for all to see.

Tony

---

2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all