What if...?

How much does it cost to build a logbooked rally car?

For the sake of discussion, this is without seats, belts, odometer, and safety gear.

I don't mean people fabricating cars themselves, but instead someone like JVL, Gene, Dave Clark, Grant, etc. to fabricate a car that is modular in spec. By modular I mean a basic build that can be added to depending on budget.

It could make getting into rally a lot easier and help bring back the concept of grassroots. Someone mentioned in another thread that rally has a tendency to attract some low income people. Having a basic built car with a $ amount attached to it, would make budgeting a lot easier for the newbie.

Say if there were 2 platforms which were plentiful and one were offered in FWD and the other in RWD. Parts producers could produce in bulk, and cottage based industries might benifit.

What if... over time there were a number of identical spec cars that could race against one another. Same cars, same rally, same powertrain, suspension, etc. Simply driver vs. driver.

Not different in concept from the Players Challenge Series using Camaro's and Firebirds. It would take years to get to that point and instead of using new cars, use a plentiful older one.

In the short term, it might help more people get onto stages in a shorter amount of time. More participants means more revenue for the organisers, more revenue... and down the line everyone benifits from the growth of the sport.

I direct this question to you Gene because I feel you're the most likely to answer.

(of course everyone is welcome to chime in with answers to this question)

If you were to build a basic RX7 1st or 2nd Generation what would it cost for minimal shell prep, stock drivetrain, upgraded brakes and suspension, cage, and everything else necessary to get it log booked? (and whatever else you feel a minimally spec. car would require)

This is for labour and materials minus the cost of the car. Also excludes, seats, belts, odo, and safety gear. What is the minimum cost of these items which would be necessary to get the car logboooked?

I realize that there will be naysayers about this, but for the sake of discussion lets try and get some constructive discourse that may actually be of benifit for a newbie looking in on the forum.

What would some of the challenges be?

Multiple builders at various places in North America building such a minimal spec. car for local rally scenes. Same spec, same components, etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 09:15PM by RWD4ME.

So like what if there were a Spec B type series and what would it cost to pay one of the prep companies to get the car ready???

Have you asked the preparers yet?

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Starting at 12k.

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Grant Hughes

A decade ago the prep on my 2nd gen RX-7 cost me ~6500, excluding seats but including harnesses. Struts were Koni yelleows with ex-hintz springs via Dave Clark.
Add in the shell and a spare running shell I bought and I was at $8500. Did one event and sold it for exactly what I had into it. Much of the install work was done by my co-driver and myself. Cage, skidplate and tow points were farmed out.

You'd have to be in the 10K range today and Grant's 12K seems about right if you want to drop off a shell and drive it away ready to rally.

There was periodic talk of doing a spec neon class in western canada but it never got off the ground. A couple of guys have played with the idea of building rental/sale golfs but the market is so limited it didn't make a lot of sense.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
There was periodic talk of doing a spec neon class in western canada but it never got off the ground.

Neon? Ew. No wonder. You crazy canucks.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

I don't the exact answer. Cost wise I still have tubing in the rafters for an Evo the guy isn't going to build and I don't remeber how much it even cost (old guy thing). I can't decide whether to do a last cage or save it for us and a future race car (not rally car).

Spec classes just don't seem to be viable in this sport. Almost any build will either be too cheap or too much for someone. While rally does attract some low budget people it really attracts a lot of rebels and that spells trouble for spec classes.

I did start a Rally Lite class many years ago. Wrote and built one of the first cars. 1500 cc max was the big limiter. Back then Datsun, Honda, Toyota, VW and several others had engines in that size or less. I ran the first year, won the championship, sodl the car. Honestly I was a bit of ringer talent and experience wise but everyone had fun anyway. The class grew pretty well for a few years I think and then faded. I had drifted away by then so JV or Dave Clark (the original) could remember more or that.

Subaru is the best all around platform. They can be FWD,RWD,AWD, forced induction, na, 1800cc to 3.sumthin. You'll still never get enough people to agree that it could work.

From a business standpoint the real answer is to find a way to attract a more affluent competitor base.

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darkknight9

Neon? Ew. No wonder. You crazy canucks.

For Western Canada roads, the neon is perfect. Incredibely plentiful, powerful, durable, and loads of aftermarket. We have relatively smooth, fast roads (sans Princeton Cutoff ).

If I was to ever make a g2 car, a Neon would come out ahead for me over a Golf or Civic everytime. Neon's don't rust like I've found Civic's to, and Golf's are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

I could build a G2 Neon for under $10k by myself (And that'd be with some okay suspenders on it).

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HiTempguy

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darkknight9

Neon? Ew. No wonder. You crazy canucks.

For Western Canada roads, the neon is perfect. Incredibely plentiful, powerful, durable, and loads of aftermarket. We have relatively smooth, fast roads (sans Princeton Cutoff ).

If I was to ever make a g2 car, a Neon would come out ahead for me over a Golf or Civic everytime. Neon's don't rust like I've found Civic's to, and Golf's are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

I could build a G2 Neon for under $10k by myself (And that'd be with some okay suspenders on it).

Neons don't rust because they don't drive long enough to get road salt damage. They're all sitting around broken with bad timing belts, ecu issues or head gaskets. Waiting for the welfare moms to get enough money to fix them.

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heymagic

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HiTempguy

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darkknight9

Neon? Ew. No wonder. You crazy canucks.

For Western Canada roads, the neon is perfect. Incredibely plentiful, powerful, durable, and loads of aftermarket. We have relatively smooth, fast roads (sans Princeton Cutoff ).

If I was to ever make a g2 car, a Neon would come out ahead for me over a Golf or Civic everytime. Neon's don't rust like I've found Civic's to, and Golf's are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

I could build a G2 Neon for under $10k by myself (And that'd be with some okay suspenders on it).

Neons don't rust because they don't drive long enough to get road salt damage. They're all sitting around broken with bad timing belts, ecu issues or head gaskets. Waiting for the welfare moms to get enough money to fix them.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

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HiTempguy

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darkknight9

Neon? Ew. No wonder. You crazy canucks.

For Western Canada roads, the neon is perfect. Incredibely plentiful, powerful, durable, and loads of aftermarket. !!!We have relatively smooth, fast roads (sans Princeton Cutoff ).

If I was to ever make a g2 car, a Neon would come out ahead for me over a Golf or Civic everytime. Neon's don't rust like I've found Civic's to, and Golf's are sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

I could build a G2 Neon for under $10k by myself (And that'd be with some okay suspenders on it).

Adam is some of BC most noted export product like affecting your thinking? you know hey call it Loco Weed in your sister-State of Texas, dontcha.. You comprende what Loco means??

The ones I've driven were on short fat auto-hex tires so geared a little shorter, and I thought they were the bad side of gutless unless driven with the foot smashing the throttle, then they were just lame.

Plenty of aftermarket what? gee gaws? Wink mirrors and Malaysian made suspension 24 way ajusterbable?
You don't seem to grasp n.a. and gearing.. Th shortest final drive gear for one is maybe 3.9 and they won't pull max revs in 4th much less 5th, classic overgeared for max Em Pea Gee...

You better stick to turbo Subarus that require no thought or effort....

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 09:45AM by john vanlandingham.

"Loco" thanks for taking me back to Mexico, a great drink the "Coco Loco"!

Seems like there isn't much for 2000+ RWD's?

Would it be pretty straight forward to convert and A4 Quattro to RWD?

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RWD4ME
"Loco" thanks for taking me back to Mexico, a great drink the "Coco Loco"!

Seems like there isn't much for 2000+ RWD's?

Would it be pretty straight forward to convert and A4 Quattro to RWD?

Got any clue how much parts for Audis cost?

what's the importance of 2000+?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Golfs are slow? Huh. Someone forgot to tell a whole bunch of people that.

I don't like Neons because their gearing and diff selections suck.

Anyway, without labor costs, I figured about a year ago that I could build a Mk2 Golf for about $5500. Ended up being something like $600 for steel, $1000 for shocks, $800 for a diff, $800 for an R/P, $300 for cams, $1000 for seats/belts/extinguishers, and $1000 for the car itself. No tires, no odo, no lights. I don't remember the exact
numbers though. Seems kinda low in retrospect - I probably forgot a few things (like the skidplate, now that I think about it). Also, I figured it was about 100 hours of work if you already knew what you were doing and the car didn't fight you too much. At a conservative $50/hr, that's already almost $11K, and doesn't take into account the things I forgot.

There's also some general freshening up to do on any old shell, like changing out bushings and bearings and tie rods and balljoints and clutch and pumps and filters and and and.

If you're building it yourself, you can skimp on things if you like, but if a third-party's preparing it for you all that stuff has to be in known-good condition, which generally means "new".

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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john vanlandingham

Got any clue how much parts for Audis cost?

what's the importance of 2000+?[/quote]

Absolutely zero importance of "2000+", just a number. I could have said 1996, 1998, or earlier.

There's been a lot of A4's manufactured and I believe they share a platform with a VW? Doesn't that mean that certain parts will cross over?

I can't think of very many recent RWD cars and the Quattro reconfigured to RWD seemed like it could be an option. The engine is longitudinal, I think?

For the purpose of CARS rules... a 20V 1.8T and a 20V 2.0T would both meet the rules.

Would this make a descent platform?

What are some other RWD (or AWD cars that can be reconfigured to RWD?) that are say 15 years old?

I realize that production numbers have a lot to do with it, and also geography of where those numbers were sold. But is there a general rule of thumb in terms of years when building a car, as far as readily available donors? Like a tipping point?

Aren't things like readily available glass and body panels something that should be paramount when selecting a platform?

If one has to hoarde parts, shells, etc... It may work if you live on a farm, and have a barn with limitless space or a lot of shop space or a big piece of property. But lets face it, wouldn't you rather enjoy the ability to go to a wrecker and pull what you need?

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heymagic
From a business standpoint the real answer is to find a way to attract a more affluent competitor base.

That deserves a quote. I've told people before that if there is anything that they balk at the cost of when building a car, they probably can't afford to go rallying. That's the problem with all the Caswell fan club that I have met. Great attitude but zero budget.

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RWD4ME
Would it be pretty straight forward to convert and A4 Quattro to RWD?

Straight forward? Never. Doable, sure, just write a check. I'd say around $30k could probably get you a pretty good start on the project. Is this for a rally car cause it's been done, A4 rally car, and it wasn't competitive and the shell will not live for long. That was in AWD where the 3200 lbs wasn't as big of a deal.

Michel has it spot on.
Build it yourself and it doesn't matter what car, you will spend $8k getting it stage ready. You can spend more than that going for "cool guy" shit like pedal boxes or fancy radiators, etc., but $8k is what you will spend if you do all the work yourself. You can spread it over months but it will get there. Add on labor if you're paying someone else to do it and voila, $12k and up depending on how much you have them do and how much they value their time.
Side note: What I charge for cage work has gone up by ~50% in just one year.

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Grant Hughes