What if...?

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john vanlandingham

Adam is some of BC most noted export product like affecting your thinking?

Nope, as building a car with the whole idea of this thread in mind, a neon could be done cheaply and be an effective weapon in the current g2 scene.

I'm not much of a person into theoretical circle jerking. I don't care if you can't get decent gearsets/final drives. Why is that? Because gearsets and final drives isn't what wins in North America. Getting to the finish, and then being a better driver is. 95% of Golfs (for instance) out there make no more use of super d00per fancy made for rally parts than any other G2 car does. So yes, the neon is perfectly fine in that regard.

Also, UP HERE (which is different than DOWN THERE), MK2 and MK3 golfs are extinct. Plenty of Neons still around though. A neon makes 150hp and 150lbft out of the box and the gearboxes aren't "bad". Same can't be said for any Golf (unless you want to do a lot of work). Lots of Civics, but a rusty 1992 civic goes for $2500+ dollars here with 300,000kms.

As for all of the problems:

"bad timing belts, ecu issues or head gaskets"

Really? On this forum, you are going to call those issues that aren't easily fixed? I don't even...

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HiTempguy

Quote
john vanlandingham

Adam is some of BC most noted export product like affecting your thinking?

Nope, as building a car with the whole idea of this thread in mind, a neon could be done cheaply and be an effective weapon in the current g2 scene.

I'm not much of a person into theoretical circle jerking. I don't care if you can't get decent gearsets/final drives. Why is that? Because gearsets and final drives isn't what wins in North America. Getting to the finish, and then being a better driver is. 95% of Golfs (for instance) out there make no more use of super d00per fancy made for rally parts than any other G2 car does. So yes, the neon is perfectly fine in that regard.

Also, UP HERE (which is different than DOWN THERE), MK2 and MK3 golfs are extinct. Plenty of Neons still around though. A neon makes 150hp and 150lbft out of the box and the gearboxes aren't "bad". Same can't be said for any Golf (unless you want to do a lot of work). Lots of Civics, but a rusty 1992 civic goes for $2500+ dollars here with 300,000kms.

As for all of the problems:

"bad timing belts, ecu issues or head gaskets"

Really? On this forum, you are going to call those issues that aren't easily fixed? I don't even...

CARS. Not seeing the same rush to utilize all those aftermarket products on your sweeping roads. Lots of other manufacturers though...

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

All I said was that there has been talk.
In Edmonton, there are a bunch of neon ice racers, I think. I remember hearing about a 'spec' class for ice racing neons. Of course most of them have bolt in cages that don't allow cross use as rally cars, but that's the builder's decision.

Looking at the idea of a 'spec' class, the availability of 'good bits' almost works against the idea. If everyon has the same bad final drive and shitty gear ratios - then the fight is much more driver vs. driver. The idea of neons was based on their availability and price.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

We decided to transition the 1995 E36 325i from a rally car build for sale to a shop Chumpcar based upon section 4.9 of Chumpcar rules.
"4.9.1. All BMW 320/325 automobiles in the e36 platform that have a six-cylinder engine (with engine code M50B20, M52B20, M50B25, M52B25 or M50TUB25) shall have a fixed, minimum AIV of $500 in its OEM stock configuration."

Brooks Frehill and Brian McGuire have a team and they are also building one. (Former and current rallyist, Brooks was the Thule Jetta that did that massive jump at Rim a few years back and rallied an A4 at Laughlin one year, has since quit rallying and just does Lemons/Chump.) Brooks clued me in to this new rule for BMW cars and voila, one friend already building one. The CHCA will add a class if there are enough cars. We have a facility that will build us a Euro style rallycross course (minus tarmac) if we want one. If I ever organize any rallysprints locally, I want to allow Rallysolo with Chump car provided the cage has a few extra rally spec bars and is constructed from DOM.

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Grant Hughes

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Morison
All I said was that there has been talk.
In Edmonton, there are a bunch of neon ice racers, I think. I remember hearing about a 'spec' class for ice racing neons. Of course most of them have bolt in cages that don't allow cross use as rally cars, but that's the builder's decision.

Looking at the idea of a 'spec' class, the availability of 'good bits' almost works against the idea. If everyon has the same bad final drive and shitty gear ratios - then the fight is much more driver vs. driver. The idea of neons was based on their availability and price.

However,

if a wiser choice of cars other than utter shitbox econ-junk, basically throwaway cars as new---and some FUN bits are avaiable, the guys still have a good driver vs driver fight---they just have more fun--from better performance---while doing it..

That's what the guys in the old Rabbit Cup roadracing used to do: if one guy found something that made the car go BETTER or FASTER, they'd call everybody and SPREAD THE NEWS, so they all could have MORE FUN..

A quicker car, is nearly universally regarded as a funner car....
Most normally mal-adjusted people don't really want to have a "slow-race".

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
However,
if a wiser choice of cars other than utter shitbox econ-junk, basically throwaway cars as new---and some FUN bits are avaiable, the guys still have a good driver vs driver fight---they just have more fun--from better performance---while doing it.

Don't kill the messanger, that's just what the thinking was. I never thought the neon was a horribly inspired choice, with the exception that they are everywhere and cheap.

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john vanlandingham
Most normally mal-adjusted people don't really want to have a "slow-race".

On the other hand, my experience is that most 'real' competitive types want to have a close and fair race. Everyone in the same shit car with only safety mods allowed (claimers, even) is a farily good way to create the elusive 'level playing field' where driver talent shines.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
All I said was that there has been talk.
In Edmonton, there are a bunch of neon ice racers, I think. I remember hearing about a 'spec' class for ice racing neons. Of course most of them have bolt in cages that don't allow cross use as rally cars, but that's the builder's decision.

It wasn't for you, so much.

Now ice racing... always wanted to try it, but I have to imagine your lakes are just as overflowing with ice shacks and fishin holes of all varieties yes? Small car + spear fishing hole = bad juju.

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Morison
Looking at the idea of a 'spec' class, the availability of 'good bits' almost works against the idea. If everyon has the same bad final drive and shitty gear ratios - then the fight is much more driver vs. driver. The idea of neons was based on their availability and price.

Availability and price? How about our North American Escort? Enough of those to almost have their own McDonalds sign. Millions and millions made!

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

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RWD4ME

There's been a lot of A4's manufactured and I believe they share a platform with a VW? Doesn't that mean that certain parts will cross over?

look at what platform they share with VW, the Passat... terrible car. and don't think of it as a VW with an audi badge so parts will be cheaper, bc Passats are an audi w a VW badge so parts will be more expensive. suspension design is over complicated and expensive to maintain. newer VWs are overweight and underpowered anyway so no "real" performance potential there.

i know many here will argue, but i say the Impreza platform would be the best choice to build. yea its been done before a million times, but isnt that the point? cages have been done a million times, suspensions are available for all budgets, same with driveline options. anything from low power FWD to turbo RWD to open class. weak points are known. final drives are available.

is there something im missing? rear ends are weak for RWD use but people on here dont seem to have a problem swapping rears in other cars.

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Less talk. More rally.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 08:01PM by Ckgtimk2.

maybe we just need to petition the DoT to mandate that all cars come from the factory with FIA roll cages.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

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RWD4ME
How much does it cost to build a logbooked rally car?

For the sake of discussion, this is without seats, belts, odometer, and safety gear.

To get back on topic. You really don't have much of a car that gets "logbooked" my car was logbooked when it was a shell with a cage. So you're talking cost of car + cage ($2500ish).

But if you're talking something along the lines of a rolling chassis that's ready to plug-and-play the various components you see fit? But you're just looking at... car cost + cage/seat rails + skid plate mounts + skid plate. The cage, rails, skid plate mounts and skidder is in the $3000-$4000 range.

Now if you talk along the lines of "rally ready" I put something together a while ago in a thread but I think it came down to a "rally car in a box" type setup and it was about $6000 give or take.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 09:03PM by BillyElliot.

Any car that gets a ralliest on stage is better than an ideal car discussed on a forum.

If doing a FWD budget build I'd look at Escort or Cavalier maybe a Sephia. They are all great cars that are a bit under rated.

I'll agree with Adam that gearsets aren't necessary for a lot of G2 competitors, neither is limited slip. Senior Lane went pretty fast in Damitios old Geo Metro with terrible gears, terrible power, one wheel drive . All the bells and whistles in the world won't help the 80% who don't have 'it' . Get 'em on stage, let 'em have fun.

Maybe hardly one to chat...

But as I have said before, the Justy was on stage 1st time for just a touch over $2500.

$500 shell
$600 steel
$600 cage bent
$600 seats
$ misc...

I did all the finish welding on the cage, I just didn't have the tools on hand to bend or fit it (I guess that would be a big diff if you can't weld).

As is the car did 2 seasons without issues unrelated to the fact the motor has a aquarium pump as an oil pump (all our DNF's were motor related)

I don't see why you can't take car X and do the same... have a ball. But them I'm the chump car of rally....

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Mad Matt F
Maybe hardly one to chat...

But as I have said before, the Justy was on stage 1st time for just a touch over $2500.

$500 shell
$600 steel
$600 cage bent
$600 seats
$ misc...

I did all the finish welding on the cage, I just didn't have the tools on hand to bend or fit it (I guess that would be a big diff if you can't weld).

As is the car did 2 seasons without issues unrelated to the fact the motor has a aquarium pump as an oil pump (all our DNF's were motor related)

I don't see why you can't take car X and do the same... have a ball. But them I'm the chump car of rally....

rock on, brother!

A few years ago in the NE, we had to have cage, seats, and current belts for a RA logbook....dunno what it is today.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Al,

We haven't met... but I tink we's broders from anudder mudder...

Rock on!

edited for more better poor splelling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 11:16PM by Mad Matt F.