What if...?

Quote
heymagic
Senior Lane went pretty fast in Damitios old Geo Metro with terrible gears, terrible power, one wheel drive .

It never went fast enough to justify lifting my right foot!

Sure laughed ourselves silly. 'Fast Pace'

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

i second the subaru impreza.. not just cuz im uber- familiar with them either... its cuz all the parts interchange at subaru.. literally.. you can get fwd 95 impreza L chassis, find a crashed say, 2003 legacy, or forester, and put the whole drive line in.. the 98-2005 forrester runs the "ohh so coveted" 4:11 2.5 rs drive line... you have 3.9s in most others, 4:44s in auto-tradjik just pull the rear diff, and front ring pinion swap it and u have a quick accelerating, decent drive line, reliable NA car, for fun in open light..

there are about a billion suspension options, mail order pre-bent weld in cage kits.
on the high end of cheep.. 2,000 car, 3k cage, 1500 seats and harness, used sti struts, revalved $800, used rally tires 500, $700 for skids and full hd/ldpe underbody.. thats 8.5k.. shop around for a "needs headgaskets", your down to 1000 in the car, fixed... do cage yo self, 1000ish, used seats 800ish, rock stock suspension, and get used skid and diff cover, $300...free used rally cross tires... you can be on stage, 3,100.. and thats realistic for a slow, open light car... or even slow grp 2 car... for slow, starter.. noob.. perfect... so get out there...

yeah i forgot 1200 in suit, hans, helmet...

---

I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

I'm really enjoying the discourse in this thread and it's evolution!

I completely agree with the notion of building less than the perfect car, getting out on stage and getting time behind the wheel.

What are some contenders for RWD and FWD cars that can be done on the cheap with plenty of parts available in the wrecking yards?

Morten,

Having lived on both coasts, and in between... I think the best bet would be to look in local wrecking yards...

We all know Seattle is full of those damn bricks ( I brought one back from there)... southern Ontario has Hyundai Accents, Civics, and Golfs. Halifax had Ford Rangers, Mazada B2300's and Neons.... Montreal has Echos, Golfs, Hyundia Accents. There are nearly no RWD's in my local PnP... might be a rusty 240, 740, and maybe 1/2 a picked over BMW...

RWD... Nissan 240SX... the demand from drifters seems to be subsiding, maybe that's because they are getting scarce though... most in this area require some significant welding (rust), but there's welding required for any build. SR20DET motor is perfect for group 5, in the USA anyway, in Canada you'll now need a 32mm restrictor. Or keep the 2.3 and stay NA. Lots of after market available, but for rally specific parts you are on your own, or in a small group at best.

Cons: big and heavy; low roof-line/long hood causes headroom/visability issues; Lack of travel available for front struts; rust; rust; rust.

Pros: Loads of fun; decent engine options; reasonable diff ratios; good brakes availabe cheap; stock rims are cheap and get the job done; reliable if you don't go nuts with mods.

Cost: Roller $600-$800; cage/rust repair (DIY) $1500-$2000; engine/trans/ECU harness $1800; Diff $50 - $1000 (weld stock vs clutch type aftermarket); suspenders $2000 (John?); teh rest of the stuff is the same no matter what car.. seats, belts, extinguishers, 1st aid, spill, intecom, odo, map light, under body, skid plate, tires, paint, lights...

I figure $10 minimum... by the time you add in everything that wasn't in your list of major items... (brake lines, fule lines , fittings, wiring, rad, intercooler, blah, blah...

-Martin.

I agree with the Subaru (maybe a bit bias). I am running a 1994 Legacy with a 1997 2.2 engine ($250), bone stock ECU, some $80 deltacams, stock exhaust, a modded intake, stock 1998 RS 2.5 transmission I got for $100. A 2001 RS VLSD in the rear that I got for $50. I ran 100AW on general altimax tires that I got two years ago from the Krolokowskis for sno*drift, and we were hauling ass and having a blast. On some of the stages that didn't require a lot of acceleration (tighter corner, long straight) we were setting top 15 overall stage times.

I bought the car for $1800 off Craigslist from a kid who barely knew what he had. Put maybe $2-4k more money into it with safety/suspension/engine/transmission and have been working on improving myself as a driver before trying to really go crazy with engine/transmission upgrades. 130hp of fury, backed by a 4.11 transmission, pulling 2800lbs. It's fun.

Quote
MConte05
130hp of fury, backed by a 4.11 transmission, pulling 2800lbs. It's fun.

I guess but I guess it all depends on what you're used to.

165-175 hp backed by a 5.45 final drive(and a close ratio gearset) and 2000 lbs

sounds funn-er-er.. And that's from a cast iron pushrod thing...

1994 I got a job to supply a Saab 900 16 n.a. motor for Gp2. Target was a good useful 215bhp..

Did it, and that car had to be ballasted up becuase of PGT whiners in the Midwest lobbied behind the scenes to saddle Gp2 with stupid "if 2 liter and 16v must weight 2550 lbs" bullshit. So it was:

215bhp.....5.15 final frive...........ballasted up to 2550lbs (and it had a good close ratio box)


My point is maybe the standards have dropped drastically on the clubbie end while they have skyrocketed on the Rich Guys end making a entry field much like the real world society.

Maybe it's all what you're used to..

That was always one of the reasons I always looked to Xratty as a very good beginner car: 175 hp but more important 205 ft/lbs STOCK.

And it cost mere fractions of the cost for the European stuff on the cars I was sometimes working on ( similar year Saab, Volvo, VW, Bavarian Maggot Wagons, Opels)

So cheap to run, enough power that a beginner could have lots of fun and mainly not have the expense of somebody (me, probably) building them a decent relaible motor, and cheap to keep running.

And of course, cheap to upgrade---an ECU and an airflow metere---maybe 50-85 buck plug in and you have 205 hp and 235 ft/lbs...

You boys forget that the old Esclipse /Talon 4g62 motors were 205 hp stock?
Celica All-Trac was 205?


I am confuse.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Impretza,,, the Swiss Army knife of cars. It was getting a lot more attention for modding until the Open Light class started and everyone went that route.


RWD stuff will be somewhat rare as many manufactures deserted that platform in the 80s. BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Mazda, Volvo, Mustang and a variety of trucks are about it in modernish times.

Quote
fiasco
A few years ago in the NE, we had to have cage, seats, and current belts for a RA logbook....dunno what it is today.

As I said, I just sent in pictures of welds and seat mounts to Hurst and told him Ryan at TRF did my cage and he sent me a logbook. All of the seats/belts is something they look for at techical inspection. The only way having compliance, would be if we had some sort of annual tech inspection like they do in road racing.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
MConte05
130hp of fury, backed by a 4.11 transmission, pulling 2800lbs. It's fun.

I guess but I guess it all depends on what you're used to.

165-175 hp backed by a 5.45 final drive(and a close ratio gearset) and 2000 lbs

sounds funn-er-er.. And that's from a cast iron pushrod thing...

1994 I got a job to supply a Saab 900 16 n.a. motor for Gp2. Target was a good useful 215bhp..

Did it, and that car had to be ballasted up becuase of PGT whiners in the Midwest lobbied behind the scenes to saddle Gp2 with stupid "if 2 liter and 16v must weight 2550 lbs" bullshit. So it was:

215bhp.....5.15 final frive...........ballasted up to 2550lbs (and it had a good close ratio box)


My point is maybe the standards have dropped drastically on the clubbie end while they have skyrocketed on the Rich Guys end making a entry field much like the real world society.

Maybe it's all what you're used to..

That was always one of the reasons I always looked to Xratty as a very good beginner car: 175 hp but more important 205 ft/lbs STOCK.

And it cost mere fractions of the cost for the European stuff on the cars I was sometimes working on ( similar year Saab, Volvo, VW, Bavarian Maggot Wagons, Opels)

So cheap to run, enough power that a beginner could have lots of fun and mainly not have the expense of somebody (me, probably) building them a decent relaible motor, and cheap to keep running.

And of course, cheap to upgrade---an ECU and an airflow metere---maybe 50-85 buck plug in and you have 205 hp and 235 ft/lbs...

You boys forget that the old Esclipse /Talon 4g62 motors were 205 hp stock?
Celica All-Trac was 205?


I am confuse.

You've got a point there. But now, especially on regional levels, that "top level" car is banging a sequential dogbox so it makes it seem like that's the car to have. Thing is, it's not. I still think the R2 is a great car, but you can build twice the car for half the price it just won't have the fancy sequential. Add a sequential or just H-dog and you're then at twice the car for 2/3 the price.

But I keep looking at my car and thinking along the: I'd like 200hp, 2200 lbs, sequential or h-dog, fancy brakes, etc.

But what I find at a more reasonable compromise is the car I have right now: 160hp, 2450lbs, close ratio box, integra brakes.

I would still really like it if we all eventually just downgraded to b-spec cars. Stock motors, stock trans (although I wish they would at least allow a final drive) with LSD, good suspension, stock brakes. GO RACE! There's no thinking of what turbo kit you want or how you're going to swap the motor or cam it. If they maybe opened up the P ruleset to be a bit less restrictive and maybe added in some sort of allowances for durability (think SP but limited to NA 2WD B-spec). It's also coming along where there needs to be a good 1.5L or less turbo motor that will mop the floor. Actually, all you need is a NA 2.0L AWD car to mop the floor with production.

I think I'm rambling now, but we pretty much agree that there are very good starter cars out that that require little to no additional parts to be very competitive.

I keep thinking I should start a CA beater-car-export business (export to other states). Tons of 20-30 year old cars around here, no rust.

Just need to borrow Grant's multi-car hauler.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
RWD4ME
How much does it cost to build a logbooked rally car?

Quote
Wikipedia
Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the next best alternative forgone (that is not chosen). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices. The opportunity cost is also the "cost" (as a lost benefit) of the forgone products after making a choice. Opportunity cost is a key concept in economics, and has been described as expressing "the basic relationship between scarcity and choice". The notion of opportunity cost plays a crucial part in ensuring that scarce resources are used efficiently. Thus, opportunity costs are not restricted to monetary or financial costs: the real cost of output forgone, lost time, pleasure or any other benefit that provides utility should also be considered opportunity costs.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. After - what is it, now, 8 years? - this is the one sure thing I know about rally. Unless you're financially stable, above the curve, rally has to be the absolute center of your discretionary universe. Your world has to revolve around rally. If you have any other hobbies outside the sport, and don't have tens of thousands of dollars to play with annually, you're at a tremendous disadvantage. Something's gotta give. It's rally or something else. And something else is very often far less expensive and time consuming.

For what I spent on the engine alone in my old 97 Talon, I could have built my Galant and entered my first event. Lessons learned. For what I spent on two European vacations in as many years, I could have built my Galant and entered my first event. For what I spent on a pack-a-day cigarette habit from 2005-2012, I could have built my Galant and entered my first event.

These days, I still want to rally. I still consider it the sport of sports and the people who make it happen the salt of the Earth. But I no longer care about logbooks and all that. Like Grant said, if you balk at the cost, you probably can't rally. I definitely balk at the cost. Even if I had a complete car, entering just two events would mean the end of any other vacation plans. I love the sport, but it ain't worth that.

What makes sense to me - and what I hope more gearheads will start to consider, moving forward - is a multi-use race car. Have a lofty goal like rally, but don't think you have to build a podium contender to enjoy it. Throw a partial cage in it and get it to the track - any track. Autocross it. Rallycross it. Attend a couple HPDE days at the local road course. Take it out and (yawn) run it down the quarter mile. Use the damn thing. Then add a little bit here and there to get you to that first special stage.

Press on regardless. Fuck the naysayers.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

Quote
hoche
I keep thinking I should start a CA beater-car-export business (export to other states). Tons of 20-30 year old cars around here, no rust.

Just need to borrow Grant's multi-car hauler.

Maybe you could get a grant from CARB if you told them that you'd be ridding the state of nasty rootin tootin bas hombre pollutin cars... Win win.
CARB gives you money to buy them, you sell them to all the poor muverfawkers in all the horrible parts of the Continent where they use salt for boo-kooo dollares...Grant makes the millions back on his 12 car car hauler, I sell ever more hundreds of sets of suspenders..

We'll all be fabulously wealthy!!!!

And you could afford to get a nice car finally.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

....and you could finally afford that operation to have all that cynicism removed....







[duck & cover]

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

Quote
Creech
....and you could finally afford that operation to have all that cynicism removed....







[duck & cover]

Shirley, you could not be referring to me.

Are you saying Micheal is cynical?? Or Grant?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
Creech
....and you could finally afford that operation to have all that cynicism removed....







[duck & cover]

Shirley, you could not be referring to me.

Are you saying Micheal is cynical?? Or Grant?

I'll never tell.

And don't call me "Surely"!

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 08:26PM by Creech.