Open invitation to CARS for dialogue

Use the word "stakeholder" one more time and I'll call some guys up there who'll make you look like a steak. But older.

It reeks of Dilbertesque jagonisational catchiness.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Use the word "stakeholder" one more time and I'll call some guys up there who'll make you look like a steak. But older.
It reeks of Dilbertesque jagonisational catchiness.

What word would you rather I use that woudl be comprhensive and inclusive?
- Competitors? Nope, excludes volunteers, organisers, sponsors...?
- Constituants? Ugh, hate that word at the best of times, sounds super concescending and reaks of political gladhanding.
- The 'guys'... sigh, lots of wimmins competing these days and more on the horizon. Admittedly, most roll with the punches and accept being 'one of the guys' though.
- People.. pretty vague if you ask me. So we asked some people about things. were they tunerz? were they children that need to be thought of?
- MeatGrabber... what people do in their private time isn't my concern...

I'll admit [that word] is overused, cliche and grates, somewhat, on my nerves. The problem is that while it has been coopted into jargonese it remains a good word for some instances, this being one of them. It precisely describes who we want to communicate with - people who have a vested interest.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

People.
Those concerned.
Folks
die leute
youse guys.

We know were aren't talking about that kid on SS.com in Flar-duh who is 16 and is going to beat everybody in his local grass-o-cross and become a pull time pro rally driver..
People.
Dear readers.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers for all men who here today do spew gravel are my brothers.....

Neither the little events down here or up there are large enough to apply Power Point verbal obfuscation tactics to (not) impress people..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham

We know were aren't talking about that kid on SS.com in Flar-duh who is 16 and is going to beat everybody in his local grass-o-cross and become a pull time pro rally driver...

Hahahaha. He started on NASIOC, thread got dumped in Off Topic...and my advice was pretty much the same as John's:

Do you have an eight figure trust fund? Great! Go buy an EvobitchiRXSTi and go rallying until it becomes a low seven figure trust fund, and if somebody else isn't paying your bills by then, quit.

Or words to that effect.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

But he races shifter carts! And he flipped it 6 times! He's bound to be ready for GRC. (I wish I was 16...)

Edit... no I don't...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2013 11:03PM by Mad Matt F.

We should tell the guy he needs to start printing calendars and t-shirts first. Then selling keychains and cow bells. Driving skill be damned, if you don't have the merch you'll never make it!

Quote
BillyElliot
We should tell the guy he needs to start printing calendars and t-shirts first. Then selling keychains and cow bells. Driving skill be damned, if you don't have the merch you'll never make it!

Yeah! And where's his website and You Tube Channel? How's he 'spossed to be a hero without a website and You+tube channel?

Oh I know! Somebody needs to send him contact details for Foggy Jr's Facebookz
page so he can learn all about how to become fabulously wealth producing and selling all the Media content like Foggy has been producing for the RallyAmericar National Champ-peen-shit..
He has to if he's going to be a Champ-peen..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2013 03:47PM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
Morison
There would also be the ability to properly handle posts that intentionally misrepresent the facts and/or cross over the line into defamation.

Man, I love Canadians. Down here we just call the authors of such posts by the more colorful names of "A-hole" or "troll." Problem is, neither approach really works.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Use the word "stakeholder" one more time and I'll call some guys up there who'll make you look like a steak. But older.
It reeks of Dilbertesque jagonisational catchiness.

What word would you rather I use that woudl be comprhensive and inclusive?
- Competitors? Nope, excludes volunteers, organisers, sponsors...?
- Constituants? Ugh, hate that word at the best of times, sounds super concescending and reaks of political gladhanding.
- The 'guys'... sigh, lots of wimmins competing these days and more on the horizon. Admittedly, most roll with the punches and accept being 'one of the guys' though.
- People.. pretty vague if you ask me. So we asked some people about things. were they tunerz? were they children that need to be thought of?
- MeatGrabber... what people do in their private time isn't my concern...


I'll admit [that word] is overused, cliche and grates, somewhat, on my nerves. The problem is that while it has been coopted into jargonese it remains a good word for some instances, this being one of them. It precisely describes who we want to communicate with - people who have a vested interest.

Ok ..lets talk...stakeholders...implies ownership of some sort.
Volunteers have no stake in car rules or prep. none, nada, zip, zero. They have no concerns beyond interacting with the specifc and local organizer. Volunteers are not stakeholders.

Sponsors and vendors, should have no say in prep or safety rules (beyond consulting over say a cage design if qualified and not self serving) They have every right to say how their money is being spent but no right to require rules be made to accept or require their products at our expense for their financial enhancement.

The only people who should have a voice in prep or procedure decisions are the paying competitors and the actual organizers. Those would be the stakeholders.

Quote
heymagic
Ok ..lets talk...stakeholders...implies ownership of some sort.
Volunteers have no stake in car rules or prep.

With teh exception that many of the volunteers either want to get into the sport as a driver or are in the process of building a car, I agree completely.

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heymagic
They have no concerns beyond interacting with the specifc and local organizer. Volunteers are not stakeholders.

In the context of car prep rules, yes. In terms of procedural rules, I disagree. Volunteers invest a lot of time and often their own money to make events happen. Some rule changes should have input from the volunteers.

Quote
heymagic
Sponsors and vendors, should have no say in prep or safety rules (beyond consulting over say a cage design if qualified and not self serving) They have every right to say how their money is being spent but no right to require rules be made to accept or require their products at our expense for their financial enhancement.

Agreed.

Quote
heymagic
The only people who should have a voice in prep or procedure decisions are the paying competitors and the actual organizers.

Looking at car prep rules I don't see how organisers could be considered stakeholders. You host an event and cars come and compete, it matters not to the organisers with the exception of setting start orders, ordering trophies, nad knowing what to check at tech. (admittedly, some class rules could cause the tech process to get more involved. IE: min weights based on displacement means you have to weigh all the cars at some point when they are expected to be as light as possible.)

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heymagic
Those would be the stakeholders.

Those would be one group of stakeholders, the vested community is much deeper than that when you consider the time and efforts it takes to make rallies happen. each group of stakeholders will have different areas of interest and sometimes they will overlap.

But, when you say paying competitors you're discounting the people with cars in build or planning - probably a third of the list John brings out to show the injustice of it all. The reality is that CARS plans to reach out include sending notifications to the members (The 26 clubs), national event organisers and people who have been licensed, or held a permit to compete, in the last three years. At the moment we rely on organisers to reflect the interests of the rank and file volunteer. (We don't have volunteers in a central database... yet.)
I guess the question is how would you identify stakeholders in any way other than looking at who's held licenses? There is no requirement to 'register' your build and often we see/hear of cars the first time when they show up looking for a logbook or enter their first event.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

I guess the question is how would you identify stakeholders in any way other than looking at who's held licenses? There is no requirement to 'register' your build and often we see/hear of cars the first time when they show up looking for a logbook or enter their first event.

Damn!

Now there's a great idea! Could be fairly easy to do, and get the word out about it. Build a owener maintained database of cars that have a) competed or b) are being built. And register by class. Then actuall car owners and builders could be represented. You might get some fanboi listing his Justy (cause we all know everybody aspires to race a crap can)... with no real intent to build it. But if it was linked with the cars main site, and visible from were you download the regs...

hmmm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2013 12:42PM by Mad Matt F.

Quote
Mad Matt F
Now there's a great idea! Could be fairly easy to do, and get the word out about it. Then actuall car owners and builders could be represented.

The impression I have is that the number of rally car projects that are stillborn to the ones that make it to a stage is greater than 1:1. In my case I built one car, bought one car and had a project car that never got a cage in it but did have the interior out.

There has been some chatter of moving to electronic logbooks, but there are some practical hiccups with updating the logbook details after each event. Sometimes paper is just easier.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
the number of rally car projects that are stillborn to the ones that make it to a stage is greater than 1:1.

There has been some chatter of moving to electronic logbooks, but there are some practical hiccups with updating the logbook details after each event. Sometimes paper is just easier.

Agreed that there are probably a lot of stripped cars that end up going no-where. That would be the point of 2 classes: cars that have competed, and thus already complete, and those that are under construction. Any rule changes (ie seat mount changes) could be sent directly to the contacts within the registery...

anyway, just a fleeting thought.

as for electronic logbooks... paper is nice. It's kinda fun to flip through...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2013 01:07PM by Mad Matt F.

See we're pretty close in thought. I think organizers should have a bit of say in car preppish rules. Organizers are the 'retailers' of the product, sanctioning bodies are the 'distributors" maybe. Organizers are the front line 'buck stops here' people. Cars rules have to make enough sense to the general population that enough competitors can and will show up. Organizers are the ones who lay awake nights wondering what could have done differently to avoid THAT. Organizers are the ones who explain the road condition to the owners afterwards. Organizers are the one who have to worry about this bullshit, over the top escalation going on between the top cars currently. So they should get a small say in prep rules if asked and they actually have an opinion, since most are retired competitors they will.

Volunteers, maybe but not so much. Most are not closet ralliests in waiting. Spectators are a reality but also a commodity as well as a nusance. Both can end up in a rally car but neither is terribly affected by procedural rules. Every rally treats them both diffferently. Some have dinners for the help, tshirts, great instructions, other events not so much. I really see their interaction at an event level more than a stake holder level.

Career wannabes, what do you do there? We lost a few people with the AWD restrictions, a few with the HNRs, a few with RA, a few with NRS a few with whatever. Timm is a good (or bad) example. He has a minor interest,concern, stake in the procedings but how much influence is affordable for someone who just hasn't made the leap? I'd guess the big deal with potential competitors would be to wiselyt look at proposed changes, advertise them a couple years in advance and move on. Rally is a today deal, the people footing the bill today, racing today, organizing today are the true stakeholders. The whole shebang could be gone tomorrow and the carrer wannabees will still be looking at a rusty or dusty shell and keeping thier keyboards polished on some other forum.

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heymagic
See we're pretty close in thought.

Yup. Not surprised by that at all.

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heymagic
So they should get a small say in prep rules if asked and they actually have an opinion, since most are retired competitors they will.

Agreed.
Understanding the various groups of ... um ... "meat grabbers" out there means you can widely solicit input and give appropriate weight to the responses.

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heymagic
Volunteers, maybe but not so much. Most are not closet ralliests in waiting.

Maybe not, but 'career' volunteers might be able to give valuable perspective on procedural rules. An example is when we adopted rear-side window numbers the feedback from the marshals made us change the original spec for the numbers, which had matched the FIA.

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heymagic
Spectators are... [/quote[
yah... the answer for spectators will vary from event to event.

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heymagic
Rally is a today deal, the people footing the bill today, racing today, organizing today are the true stakeholders.

Certainly the core stakeholders, but not the inclusive list.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.