John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Andrew Steere Junior Moderator Location: South Central Nude Hamster Join Date: 12/29/2005 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 2,008 Rally Car: too rich for my blood, share a LeMons car |
Banned Ultra Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
Ok...waivers do not stop a lawsuit. Do not free an organizer from spending money to defend a position. Do not stop survivors from filing suit. YOU can say you assume a risk, but then maybe an unanticipated happening changes things. Snow, ice, tree down, road slide, car in the road, poorly written instruction. Any of these can allow someone to say 'no fair' and file suit. Justified or not.
The expense of HNRs may be due to R&D costs, liability concerns and lack of competition..not sure. They are still less than most deductables, a week off from work, a walker or a pine box. Some of this comes back to the need to attract more affluent competitors. Quit smoking, quit buying lap dances at the latte stand 
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Banned Mega Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
And in court the first point made would be that the injured person clearly didn't understand the risk as no reasonable person would have taken the risk when there was a way to reduce the chance of injury. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 
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John Lane Senior Moderator Location: Lynden Washington Join Date: 01/14/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 725 Rally Car: The Fire Breathing Monster |
John Lane Senior Moderator Location: Lynden Washington Join Date: 01/14/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 725 Rally Car: The Fire Breathing Monster |
Banned Mega Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Again, the concern is a suit or the threat of a suit, not a successful one. It doesn't matter if you don't think it holds water, the advice from the underwriters is all that really matters. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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Banned Ultra Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Banned Mega Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Of course they have lawsuits in other countries but the USA in particular is known to be the home of suing for the sake of suing. (And a land where awards of punitive damages completely are out of touch with reality.) You're missing the point. In many people's minds the best defense is not needing a defense. Yup. Add to that the fact that our ASN loyally follows the lead of the insurance broker and you'll understand why the rules are heavily biased towards 'risk management' (the new, cool, smarmy, annoying euphemism for insurance.) Your biggest problem - and one I used to share - is that you seem to get annoyed that the reality of the world isn't what you think it should be. To be fair, I generally agree with your assertions of how things should operate but I recognize things don't always work as I think they should and, more importantly, I don't get angry or stressed every time they don't. (Some things still light me off, but I'm working on it.)  First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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Banned Ultra Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
I don't see why a rule or requirement can't have more than one reason, and reasons or data can be accumulative. Yes there is always a concern of lawsuit and yes there is a concern for competitors or friends being hurt. Both are real and valid reasons for a decision or policy. We don't live in a black and white world and many times the correct answer to a question is : D. All of the above.
There is a large difference between safety rules, procedural rules, participation rules and competiton rules. All the rules affect us to some degree, but that degree varies from negligible to 'oh my gawd I just can't go on..' How rules are handled by different organization will be different. CARS is more of a member based deal (I think) similar SCCA whereas RA and NRS are more of a benevolent dictatorship deal, mostly. Decisions may be made for the benefit of any part of the equation, owners, comeptitors, workers or everyone. Just the way it is. They (rules) aren't always popular or correct. We deal with it in some fashion anyway. HNRs good, seat belts good, helmets good...mucking about with 2WD classes maybe... 
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John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
But you make the mistake of thinking that a person can describe in clear terms a bullshit response to paranoid thinking. You know I lost patience with groundless fear long ago. And you have to admit that paranoia is a significant part of the North American psyche... It doesn't mean that in describing it that one is angry... Maybe disgusted that once more bullshit and unsinn prevails and the explanations are as always SAFETY!!!! If we wanted to be safe, we would just pull the covers over our heads... See manipulative people will always justify their stuff either in rally world or real world as connected to safety because "Who would argue about MORE SAFETY???" John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Banned Mega Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Nah, I just believe that paranoia can be countered through education and reassurance. Social paranoia usually can be, in my experience, clinical paranoia not so much. I also don't have a lot of patience for groundless fear. Same goes for uninformed or speculative fear. (Such as baseless, paranoid fears that 'the federation' is lining their own pockets at the cost of the competitors) Some need to see there are grounds for concern (fear) before they accept the it isn't groundless. I'm a bit more willing to accept the words of others, who are in a position to know more than I do and understand it better, without assuming there is a conspiracy or 'back-room dealings' in place. Remember that we all are involved in rally by choice. If I feel I am being systematically screwed over I can choose to either not participate or I can get involved and change how the association is run. (The beauty of a democratic system of governance) Yup. (I just about typed something pithy about stating the obvious, but decided not to.) Nope. It is the language and tone you use that coveys anger. (Intended or not.) Regular name calling and the hurling of insults definitely betrays some anger in you, whether you realize it or not. Certainly I will, and have, called BS on a rule change presented as a safety initiative that isn't. We all should. H&N devices are[/i] a legit safety item despite your refusal to accept that they are. Don't do that, you could suffocate! You might want to look at a GrA bed-cover vent (BCV) that might be mandatory in the coming years, it's already recommended! There's even GrN BCVs for minors that flow slightly less air than the adult version to avoid over oxegenation of the youngins. (They thought of the children) Make sure you buy the right size BCV and change them out regularly to make sure the airflow is adequate but not excessive. (This is one of the reasons the FIA BCV standard has a two-year expiry date) In all seriousness, I think it is a fallacy that people rally because they enjoy the danger. From my perspective I know I make sure I've managed as many risks as I can before I start a stage. I regularly feel more at risk driving across Calgary than I did winning stages with Norm Leblanc. Similarly manipulative people will try and turn an issue into a divisive black and white singular issue by asking 'how many have died without this' and discounting the impact on non-fatal incidents that are still safety concerns. I simply don't accept that people need to die before a safety concern is validated. Also, Gene was right on the money when he said rules or requirements can have more than one reason, and reasons or data can be cumulative. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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randy zimmer Infallible Moderator Location: Buffalo, NY Join Date: 03/12/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 196 Rally Car: rallycross 13B Miata |
John Vanlandingham Professional Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
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