My attempt to continue the Buy vs Build debate

Part of me wants to ask why you aren't trying to be competitive. Okay, why aren't you trying to be competitive? Racing is a competitive sport.
We do these things because A) we enjoy cars and racing, we love being competitive and trash talking our brethren C) we love spending all spare change (most of us) on these stupid cars.
I don't want , I want B ) !!!!!!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 02:20AM by Robert Culbertson.

We are just trying to gain experience at this point. We won't be good drivers for a long time to come anyway, so what is the point of sinking a lot of money into a car that we don't know how to drive? We just want to go fast through the woods and do it safely/have fun.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.

You'll have more fun and become better drivers sooner if you start with a car that's at least been gone through thoroughly before you start. That way you can focus on improving your driving at events rather than worrying about the car breaking if you go too fast or spending the weekend fixing your car rather than racing. It's worth it to spend a bit extra up front to ensure that you have a reliable car so that you don't waste thousands later on wasted entry fees, towing, vacay days,hotels,etc.

Nissan is no cheaper for parts than Volvo. Both are prob pretty affordable.
Clutch jobs are done all the time at rallies. Entering with a bad or questionable clutch sounds like a quick way to lose away a grand.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
Robert Culbertson
Part of me wants to ask why you aren't trying to be competitive. Okay, why aren't you trying to be competitive? Racing is a competitive sport.
We do these things because A) we enjoy cars and racing, we love being competitive and trash talking our brethren C) we love spending all spare change (most of us) on these stupid cars.
I don't want , I want B ) !!!!!!!!!!!

Ya knoez, we encounter this a lot... I'm flabbergasted usually---

I can't begin to understand the process to conclude "Daaa yepp da Yepp Gonna build a rally car George, da yepp gonna spend thousands doin' it and lotta dough getting there, da yepp, but I'm going to drive on suspension that is not even adequate for low level highway--hoonin' and pay a big fawking entry fee , but we're not even thinking about trying just gonna putter along...da jepp"

When they could skip 1 or 2 events---go find somewhere to play---and with that money, get some good things holding the car up...



Reading a book now, ya know we have an 8 and 6 year old, and like all good parents who love their kids we think long and hard and often about preparing them for their future; it's called
How Children Succeed by Paul Tough
soustitre is "Grit, Curiosity and the hidden power of Character"

And one of the more notable things for me was the reviews of the LONG term effect of childrens ability to delay gratification for a later award...as a marker of long term adult life accomplishments.

From Wiki:

Quote

How Children Succeed built upon the work of James Heckman, University of Chicago economist and Nobel lauterate, that stated that education should focus more on promoting the psychological traits of "conscientiousness" among children at young ages rather than more IQ-related studies later in life. Tough wrote explicitly, "There is no anti-poverty tool that we can provide for disadvantaged young people that will be more valuable that character strengths". He cited research such as the famous Perry Preschool Project to state that nurturing, supportive personal relationships with adults in educational settings promote non-cognitive attributes that lead to higher incomes, less criminality, and other benefits, even when children face harsh early environments, to deliver a message that Tough found "a bit warm and fuzzy" but "rooted in cold, hard science". He refers to the work of Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck, who studied how students instructed that people can boost themselves intellectually get higher grades than those believing in a fixed idea of intelligence, as a key example.[3][6]

The Washington Monthly ran a positive review by Thomas Toch, who stated that Tough made "a compelling case" in "an engaging book that casts the school reform debate in a provocative new light".[3] Taki's Magazine ran a critical review by Steve Sailer, who stated that "it’s not particularly clear what Tough has new to offer". Sailer also remarked that the importance of character building has been promoted by everything from "The Boy Scout Handbook to The Holy Bible" before Tough picked up the subject.[6] The Boston Globe ran a supportive article by Jenifer B. McKim; she wrote, "In this concise book, Tough provides deep research, expert testimony, and eloquently described real-life characters to make his case."[7]

I cannot help but think of all these over the years, as all the fixed cost of what I call "Arrival at the Finland Station"* more and more people willing to spend so much and then neglect what we once considered an absolute per-requisite: Suspension and gearing. Not just neglect but conciously rationalise why going out is a know unprepared car is OK...



* which all you culturless louts think is some reference to Finland and rally but in fact is a nod of respect to a great book from 1940 by Edmund Wilson "To the Finland Station" looking at all the years of underground and revolutionary activity all the way up to the dramatic trip across wartime Europe and Lenin's arrival "at the Finland Station"**


** In some places the Railway Stations are named after where the trains are going to, like Gare d'Est in the east side of Paris, Gare de Lyon, Gare du Nord, Gare Saint-Lazare, and in this case the station on the West side of St. Petersburg heading toward Lahti and onward to Helsinki in Finland---then since 1809 part of the Russian Empire.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2013 10:58PM by john vanlandingham.

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SmoothCustomer
To be fair it was quite late when I posted that, I don't normally make grammatical or spelling errors such as those. I don't want to seem unappreciative of your advice but in my opinion you are proving my point, considering the reliability of Nissan cars especially motors like the aforementioned KA24DE. Of course we would carry spare parts like radiator hose etc. but I don't think things like that are going to be significantly expensive (I realize that little bits and pieces add up but parts for Nissan cars are not expensive at all, especially compared to something like a Volvo). Of course if something like a clutch needs replacing we are talking about a more expensive part but I don't consider that a necessary part for entering a rally because we would likely not attempt to make that repair at an event. You did help me out though because I didn't factor in the intercom, computer or skid plates but considering the cost we can get material at, that hopefully won't be a significant cost either. Again though, we aren't trying to be competitive and if factory shocks are in at least reasonable shape we would probably just run them. Would it be the ideal ride? I'm sure it wouldn't. Would it mean we can't race? I doubt it.

Well right on then. First off, there is no being fair in rallying, just no-holds-barred heckling, all the time. Be careful, most of these guys will drop an ice cold crecent wrench down your butt crack if you bend over.

I like your spunky 'tude that says nissan motors are more explosion proof and cheaper than volvo motors. I love a good grudge match.

Like I said, I had very much your same idea about just getting started, not trying to win. I chose to invest in some good suspension though, i knew from previous wheeled fool-about that poor suspension can send you out of control, quick. Rallys are full of big trees, rocks, cliffs, etc. and even at 40 mph, getting bounced and going off can be a serious deal.

It took one rally, and I realized that a stock 120 hp car is dog slow in the dirt. i took the time honored low power rally car step and got a 4.88 ring and pinion, this helps a lot.

so, think about some sort of suspension recipe, and gearing options, so that you have fun rallying

Will do, thanks!!

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.

Quote
SmoothCustomer
Will do, thanks!!

Eric, I was the co-driver for 2 guys here who both started with near stockish engines , but Soooper Bitchin Suspenders...

In both cases about half-way thru both driver and co-driver was wishing for more acceleration.

It's nice when that's the major worry, more ooomph..

Not "OMG Boing! We're BOING! Gonna BOING! DIE!!!!!!! BOING CRASH!

Or far worse. after scaring themselves the diametric opposite approach the 'duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh...........crunch.......duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh............crunch......duuuuh.
Not even trying at all "we're IN the Event!!! WE're RALLY RACERS!!!!!" like I've seen too frequently...
Literally driving the stages at 35-37mph.

Sooner or later you will have to begin learning how to give it gas and learning to brake (<-----that is really the most important skill, and in the end the hardest to master but the most rewarding.) so may as well start sooner...

Suspension, compression, gearing....the easy low hanging fruit, that's what to go for.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

As an abstract of poor suspension, I had a dumassed kid customer years ago that took his springs out to lower his Mazda 323. I hollared at him several times but there aint no cure for dumb. One rainy day the car got to bouncing going down the freeway and zip off the road he flew. No injuries but the car was totalled.

I'm with ya on the Nissan thing tho, Volvos are for girls that don't shave their legs (most look like Al also).