My attempt to continue the Buy vs Build debate

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Logdog

I dont necessarily see anything wrong with participating at the first couple rallies. It seems one of the number one things I hear when talking to people who have cars is that they were happy to just finish their first few rallies. That finishing was an accomplishment itself.

Those who compete should be glad that they crossed the finish and never gave up. If however you are going to walk a marathon when everyone else is running... how do I put this gently... unless your disabled physically or mentally you should feel shame for walking where others are running. Moreover you really ought to just wait until the entire field has finished a stage and do that thing where racetracks let people drive their cars once around the track on their way home in their daily drivers.

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Logdog
I did plan on attending Team Oneil before my first event. Whenever that may be.

This is good.

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Logdog
My understanding with motorsports rentals was "you break it, you buy it". Is this not true in rally?

Is your understanding based on hearsay or have ye actually been in contact/read online policies of rally rentals?

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Logdog
Looking back at my posts I realize I didnt do a very good job of saying I am not looking for the cheapest way to rally. I know its expensive. I know a weekend is a big chunk of change. I know it requires working on week nights. I dont plan on trying to run a full season of rally. I have been working 3 rallies or so a year. If I could participate in 2 and work 1, I think I would be happy. Unless I get bit by the bug so hard I start running up credit cards to pay for it all in hopes the sponsers discover me and I get my own brand of Xtreme Beet Juice to pitch.

I realize the internet will never agree on anything. It just seems like buying a car like this
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,68865,69232#msg-69232
and finishing the safety gear in order to get on stage, and then upgrading as you break/get experienced/win lottery wouldnt be a bad way to get started. Maybe I underestimated all the cars. I didnt realize they were all running full zoot race suspensions and built motors. But thats why we ask questions, to learn stuff.

9	1	P	262	Steve Brockelman / Dustin Masters	1991 GMC SONOMA 
14	2	P	902	Jordan Guitar / Daniel McCarron		2009 Honda Fit
6	1	P	334	John Black / Lori Stone			1994 Ford Ranger
8	2	P	802	Chris Rosner / Victoria Rosner		1995 Geo Metro
4	1	P	334	John Black / Marra Estep		1994 Ford Ranger
4	1	P	34	John Black / Lori Stone			2000 Ford Focus
2	1	P	573	Brian Penza / Neil Salmons		2008 Honda Civic Si
17	1	P	222	Bruce Tabor / John Elkin		1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R
		PGT	150	Ivaylo Draganov / Vladimir Yanev	2002 Subaru WRX
8	1	PGT	271	Matthew Tabor / Kathryn Hansen		2002 Subaru WRX
16	2	PGT	231	Kristen Tabor / Janice Tabor		1999 Subaru 2.5RS
2	1	PGT	525	David Allan / Tammy Allan		2004 Subaru WRX

Out of all available entries in rally america regionals last year(180+) these are *ALL the production and production gt entries. And even out of these only 2 are 'recently made' cars. Do realize that everyone else is running some kind of improved suspension and depending upon class improved everything else. Even though you race against the clock in stage rally, you are competing against your fellow competitors in class. You might not be able to compete for the overall positions (more power to you if you can with a 2800 lbs car with 90 hp)... but you still want to beat those who are racing the same rules for vehicles as you. Well, there they are. There were more events than there were entries so I guess you could win your class by default.



It is already possible to buy a car made in the last decade, put a cage in it along with all the other safety equipment and go... but the lack of entries should show you that it might not be a good idea. Old Chris Rock joke: "You can drive a car with your feet but that don't mean it should be done." OEM parts that automakers are assembling themselves or sourcing out for the lowest dollar are *not* going to hold up to the test.

Unless your walking.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

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darkknight9

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Logdog
My understanding with motorsports rentals was "you break it, you buy it". Is this not true in rally?

Is your understanding based on hearsay or have ye actually been in contact/read online policies of rally rentals?

I didnt look into every company that rents, but when I saw Team Oneil does a up to 10k deposit, I made the assumption that rally was like everything else you rent. You break it, you buy it. Even Home Depot has that rule.

http://www.teamoneilmotorsports.com/rally-car-rentals/

There has been alot of good info presented here. I appreciate it all. I was operating under the assumption there were teams, even in open light and G2, running less than top of the line stuff. Subarus with 1.8s and stockish suspension, stuff like that. That was based just on my observations, I didnt approach teams and ask specifics. Magnum Opus is coming up. I will be working so maybe I will do a little brain picking while I am up there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2013 06:41AM by Logdog.

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darkknight9

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Logdog
It seems it might be a was on price compared to an outdated worn car.

Asking them clearly is another plus.

You know how the brain sees what it wants to see? I kept reading this trying to figure out what you meant. Then I saw I left off that pesky "H".


"It seems it might be a wash on price compared to an outdated worn car." is what I meant to say.

Well, yes- some run "stockish" - And that's just totally fine. You don't need $7,000 suspension, but bone stock won't last very long, either.

And it's also totally fine to participate and not compete - especially for your first few rallies. It will still be fun and you will learn a lot.

I think your attitude is pretty good for someone wanting to get started - It's realistic.

Maybe at your next rally spend lots of time and parc expose and service asking questions about the cars that you see. The owners will usually talk your ears off. Ask about what upgrades have been done. This will be great research for you.

Doug

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Logdog

There has been alot of good info presented here. I appreciate it all. I was operating under the assumption there were teams, even in open light and G2, running less than top of the line stuff. Subarus with 1.8s and stockish suspension, stuff like that. That was based just on my observations, I didnt approach teams and ask specifics. Magnum Opus is coming up. I will be working so maybe I will do a little brain picking while I am up there.

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Logdog
There has been alot of good info presented here. I appreciate it all. I was operating under the assumption there were teams, even in open light and G2, running less than top of the line stuff. Subarus with 1.8s and stockish suspension, stuff like that. That was based just on my observations, I didnt approach teams and ask specifics. Magnum Opus is coming up. I will be working so maybe I will do a little brain picking while I am up there.

I am running in Open Light with a stock 2.2 with some $80 deltacams, some cheaper $2k suspension, stock RS drivetrain, stock brakes (with some unknown brake pad in there that has been just fine for me), stock steering rack, etc, and have been fairly competitive. I still feel like there is some more speed in the chassis, and working on finding it.

I think the car used to run on KYB AGX's for a number of years before I purchased it, but no idea how fast the previous owner was.

Lots of G2/G5 cars are in near stock condition. Lots of people just get out and drive for fun without being at the podium level. Seems most people only get 2 or 3 events a year so if you avoid the jumps a big rocks you can survive. I spectated part of Olympus 1982 and thought that if a guy just had 4 cylinders that worked he would do ok. In Olympus 1983 I did just that finishing 20th (?) beating one finisher. I had the absolute worst imaginable rally car with stock everything except the engine (which had less power than stock sadly...) but ran on all four.

Its your dream.

i was going to mention matt^^^^ as an example of being semi competitive by buying an older car, but note that he too has had to do "maintenance" aka new power plant.. semi-competitive is a compliment matt.. and F!! prichard..lol...

im in the build it camp, but am 2 years into a "wrench when i can" project... and having 2 kids makes it difficult... I worx'd for a rally builder for years doing chassis prep and service b4 i started my car, so i started building a car to X specs.. with X parts in mind.. when i coulda woulda shoulda just caged it, and went out and beat the stock stuff till it broke, and replaced it... hell i have seen the expensive stuff break.. your not gonna make it indestructable.. so just do the cage, seats, and skids, go have fun, and upgrade as you can, and as stuff comes on the market...
hell, carl sigler... aka ziptie rally was just selling a set of rssp's for a decent price.. woulda been a good upgrade for any subaru.. a guy on here has a set of rears...

lots of teams have extra parts, and old extra parts, and keep these just incase parts... if you start asking, they might sell stuff, that you wouldnt have found looking online for 3 or 4 years, just cuz they were maybe, just maybe gonna use it someday... seems rally-ers are kinda hoarders like that...

you will need decent tires... grippas are good and less expensive than others new.. paul at braid deals used tyres when he has them in stock...

DONT BUY CHEAP SUSPENDERS!!! entry level shit WILL break just as quick as the factory ones... run stockers and bring a few complete sets from the junk yard with, then save for some Jvabs, or wait till a decent used set pops up on your radar..
hell... if your in the UP talk to yeoman.. he prolly has his "old stuff" sitting somewhere...

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I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

Buy vs. Build part 687,429:
Just because you build it, doesn't guarantee it will have any less basket case shit than a bought car, just when you DNF due to a shorted bit of wiring, you can't blame it on the previous owner and it's your own poor preparation to blame.

I don't think anyone should spend money on going to Tim O'Neil's before buying a car or their first event. You are much better off spending that money on the actual car or on entry fees.
If you DO feel the need to do a school after you have completed a few events, bring your own rally car somewhere and do one to one instruction.

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Grant Hughes

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Logdog
"It seems it might be a wash on price compared to an outdated worn car." is what I meant to say.

Is it right to assume that a 30 year old car built to proper specifications and stronger than a brick shithouse is going to be outdated and worn?

Have you seen how old some rally cars are and how the unrolled ones that were at the top are still being used on the club level today?

So here's my final thought on it, taking most everything in your question into consideration. No matter new or old its going to need the following (RA rules):

Helmets
Head and neck restraint systems
Driving Suits
Seat Belts
Window nets (if the window is down)
Seats
Cage
Fire Extinguisher
Fuel Tank/Cell
Logbook
First Aid Kit/safety signs/etc.

You may save $ by buying an already prepped rig on the seats, fuel cell, and the cage. Some of the rest of the stuff may have an expiration date on it and if its past its 'prime' you'll need to replace them too. Woe is you if the cage doesn't pass inspection but assuming one of the folks who know about such things approve of it and sign off on the logbook, it *should be just as safe as a brand new one.

(I am with you on this point though. If I had my way any car that I got into would be more tank than car and probably be so heavy that it wouldn't move. But I'd be safe!)

Let me remind you that if you upgrade anything outside of the rules for production you are going to need to run 'Open' instead. That may not be a problem if you are unconcerned with your times, but it is another set of rules to familiarize yourself with.

Since you are concerned about older cages being safe, and it sounds like you don't necessarily want to spend too much time wrenching... AND you're willing to participate instead of compete I would think your personal preference would be to find a cage builder familiar with whatever series you want to contest and have them put a new cage in a Honda (2010+ and/or less than 50k miles) or something similar and participate in the Production class. You will break suspension pieces so you'll need to get to know your local parts dealer well. Buy a few sets of everything (brakes, suspension, tires) $$$ to put into your hauler along with your tools, trailer up fork over the entry fees and don't forget to wave at every spectator station.

This way you will find out exactly how far you can push a 'production lite' vehicle before it breaks... or you will find out how far you can push you before you break. But in picking a newer car with a nearly bulletproof engine you will (more than likely) at least not have to worry about your powerplant needing a quart and a half of oil after each stage.

I guess it really boils down to how you value yourself and your time. If money is no object it isn't going to matter either way but if you have to spend more of your time prepping the car than enjoying rallies and other parts of your life... how much is it worth to you per hour?

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Kirk, a little note for you and something to think of when talking to noobs about the frustration , futility and foofery of fawkin wif production cars.
In your chart above soemwhere, it might help to add in the Overall and in calss thing what the GAP for soem of those P cars are.
8th OA and 20 seconds outta first is one thing.
3rd OA and an hour after 1st is another..
Seee what I mean..???
Also the region makes a difference.
SoCal with 18-19 cars and a huge range of some kinda kooky cars and mainly arroyos to smash thru obviously favors the ability to smash thru things over every other
thing...hence pick-ups semi desert-ized..


P class was a bone thrown to MFGs so there could be someplace for somebody to take some piccies for their ad departments to write some crappy ad copy..

So unless the car is virtually free, and the parts also virtually free, there is littler point in voluntarily saddling oneself with such a vast arry of utter bullshit as the P class which has historically been filled with all kinds of cynical, and repulsive cheaters....admitted cheaters...which negates anything they did...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

O.P.----> group 2, 5, and light all fall under the open class...

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I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.

Very wise. I'll see about digging out the regions later. As for now though:

O/A	I/C		#	Driver				O/A time	TIME behind 1st
9	1	P	262	Steve Brockelmn	1991 GMC SONOMA 01:17:09.10	00:05:45.45
14	2	P	902	Jordan Guitar	2009 Honda Fit	01:20:16.30	00:08:52.52
6	1	P	334	John Black	1994 Ford Rangr	01:10:15.00	00:15:58.58
8	2	P	802	Chris Rosner	1995 Geo Metro	01:16:06.00	00:07:35.35
4	1	P	334	John Black	1994 Ford Rangr	48:54.00	00:13:26.26
4	1	P	34	John Black	2000 Ford Focus	01:32:17.00	00:04:59.59
2	1	P	573	Brian Penza	2008 HondaCivic	01:12:29.00	00:07:40.40
17	1	P	222	Bruce Tabor	1991 NissanSent	01:14:09.00	00:11:07.07

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Quote
heymagic
Lots of G2/G5 cars are in near stock condition. Lots of people just get out and drive for fun without being at the podium level. Seems most people only get 2 or 3 events a year so if you avoid the jumps a big rocks you can survive. I spectated part of Olympus 1982 and thought that if a guy just had 4 cylinders that worked he would do ok. In Olympus 1983 I did just that finishing 20th (?) beating one finisher. I had the absolute worst imaginable rally car with stock everything except the engine (which had less power than stock sadly...) but ran on all four.

Its your dream.

I dig it. And that sounds pretty much like what I have been thinking.

I’m not quite sure where the idea I wanted to race in production came from, other than asking about running the first rally or so on stock components. G2 is really where I am leaning.

There have been a lot of thought out responses, and I greatly appreciate them all, so forgive me if I missed a point or two. Here is what I have got out of this thread so far.

1. Winning vs. "Participating"- My impression was that the first few events came with such a steep learning curve that just finishing the race was an accomplishment to be celebrated. I have been told this several time in my travels. I did not realize that there was another side that says you shouldn’t be out there unless you are fully prepped and driven to win right out of the gate. I haven’t actually heard that until this thread. I think I fall into the first category. I’m not saying the second category is wrong, just that I don’t fall into it.
Last year at LSPR there was a guy in a MK2 Jetta that was bringing up the rear of the pack. He didn’t appear to be flying down the stages. I later heard it was his first rally. That’s awesome! He was driving. I was guarding a snowmobile trail.

2. Race parts vs. Stock- I agree a nice suspension is useful. I agree it is needed for longevity. I realize stock parts are not as strong. It seems there are a lot of people that started out running stock components and later upgraded. If I get two events on stock stuff before I upgrade, isn’t that better than missing two event while I buy better parts? Experience or parts? Better parts, better experience? Just say screw it and buy a 90 inch TV and play Dirt all day?

3. Buy vs. Build- This is where it all began. The 4-6k buck cars I saw in the market made me think there would not be much difference between buying one and then spending money on maintenance and safety or just building one. Either way I would be buying safety and performing maintenance. The biggest advantage I saw to buying over building was the cage came preinstalled. Other than that it didn’t seem like much of a difference. Either way you spend 7-8k. When you get to 12-14k cars, the advantage of buying becomes pretty clear. I think it comes down to the question of “How much to you want to spend on your first car?” Everybody’s answer is different on that. Right now I am leaning on building but I haven’t spent any money on it yet. Who knows, the right car may come along for sale in the next month or two.

Lucky for me I have a truck, trailer, tools and shop all ready to go.

I don’t know if anybody else here is in the horse world. My wife competes in Eventing, which is a lot like rally (time trials, cross country runs and jumps). There are million dollar horses in this stuff. People have luxury semis at bigger events. There are people that say you must have a certain breed horse, a living quarter equipped trailer that costs as much as a house and crew cab dually truck or medium duty freightliner (These people live for the diesel or gasser debate!) at a minimum before you can play. You can pay big money for national events or less money for smaller regional events. A car service area and a horse service area are just about the same place if you spend any time in both. She competes with a 19 year old Appaloosa mutt of a horse (although he retired at the end of last year), we have a bumper pull trailer and a gasser truck. There are other people in the exact same position as us. None of us non-million dollar horse people will ever have the glory of winning the Rolex 3 day event down in Lexington, but there is a lot of fun to be had at the local level, with the ugly mutt horses.

would you think it wise for somebody like me has has ridden horses some---30-40 yeas ago--- to buy a horse and just sign up at any horse race?

Is the entry fee for these horse races, local or The Big Race, $25? $650? $1200?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.