My attempt to continue the Buy vs Build debate

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RallyBrighton
Yes - I'll be at Magnum Opus - come and stop by. I was all set for Sno*Drift but a work crisis came up in the 11th hour (while I was loading my gear) and I had to cancel - nothing like eating a $1k entry fee...but work pays for rally. Anyway, hopefully I'll see you up in Newberry - I'll be the the slow guy.

Your post sounds like you didn't get a refund?

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heymagic

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RallyBrighton
Yes - I'll be at Magnum Opus - come and stop by. I was all set for Sno*Drift but a work crisis came up in the 11th hour (while I was loading my gear) and I had to cancel - nothing like eating a $1k entry fee...but work pays for rally. Anyway, hopefully I'll see you up in Newberry - I'll be the the slow guy.

Your post sounds like you didn't get a refund?

I didn't but I didn't really expect one based on what the terms were - I may ask for a credit of some sort for next year but at the end of the day, I did have to withdraw the night before the event...what's the old saying: poor planning on my part should not create a crisis for someone else - or thereabout...

I don't agree. Did the supplementals say no refunds?
I had to withdraw the night before an event once. They were more than happy to refund my entry, I instead transferred it to a team that was just on the verge of making it and had them pay me instead.

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Grant Hughes

I may not know anything about refunds but I do know it sounds like Magnum Opus is going to be a party!

I'll be at Magnum Opus too! I figured Anders would be at Empire rally. Glad to here your headed to MI!

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

Sno Drift got $100.00 extra from me for being 1 min late to park ferm the first min of my first rally! Still a little upset but I guess thats what I get for placing contigancy stickers for an extra shot at cash rather then being in park ferm. So they should refund at least a $100.00 and still brake even!

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
Like 31motorsports on FB!
Check out 31motor sales on ebay for used Subaru parts

I've been a lurker here too, and I hate to belabor this point (and the thread was a little bit long, so if this was covered I truly apologize) but when exactly do you guys think it is better to build, i.e. when will it actually save money? My brother and I are casually looking at cars at this stage. We are thinking something like a v6 Nissan s12 that runs and drives well would be very nice for the group 2 class. We are both very savvy mechanics, so things like a clutch, etc won't be an issue and we've also done our share of engine swaps so we would have a spare ready to go should we have a problem. I guess my real question is can someone actually list the costs (with some reasonable averages) of building a rally car (and DON'T include items like breaks/tires or other obvious wear items, these are a given)? As far as I can tell: cage, seats, harness, fire extinguishers, driver safety gear... is there any major expense I'm missing? I figure we can get a car for $1000 (trust me they are around here, and motors are even more abundant) I know a guy who is willing to build a cage (VERY experienced) for $600, and allow about $1000 for in car (i.e. not suits/helmets) safety including seats, harness, etc. bringing the grand total to $2600. I'll even round up to $3000 to not limit ourselves. Does this seem like a reasonable way to do things or am I just totally out of my mind thinking I could buy and build a car for that price? I won't be offended if you think I am, just tell me why!! But don't tell me it's the cage, because our guy is known to be reliable. Thanks guys!!!

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.

Just the correct materials for a cage will cost in the 500-600 range so right there your guy is spending too much time with the lighter under a light bulb.
You will end up spending 5-8k no matter what you do. There's ways to keep costs down and you can buy everything used and cheap and maybe get under $5k, but it's not easy. But there is that old saying, "if it was easy, every schmuck would be doing it." Or "Nothing that is too easy is really worth doing."

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Grant Hughes

We are able to get DOM at cost. I sort of assume that the "easy" part refers to labor? That's not an issue for us. There really isn't a mechanical issue or modification that we won't be able to handle ourselves (apart from the cage). Also, Nissan parts are abundant and cheap. Although that being said we would probably be willing to spend $5000 just not a ton more. I think the real issue will be actually funding the events. Paying for hotels and stuff won't be fun, but we can eat cheap and there is at least one event that's driving distance from our parent's house.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 11:39PM by SmoothCustomer.

2wd. and gravel. Don't listen to the boys that talk "I can haz 300 hp easy, mang!"
You don't need 300 on 2wd gravel car.

Remember: what the motor doesn't make in ft/lbs, the gear do.
Get any old 4.(SR20DE, SR20DET, KA24DE) Give it some compression and some non emissions cams, something warmer than what you old Auntie Em from Elmira would choose. Some kinda headers, and exhaust--in several easily detachable pieces.

Then scare up a rear ring and pinion shorter than 4.5. Maybe some truck or SUV thing.

STRENGTHEN by stitch welding the rear shock towers be smart on cage design: back stays and diagonals to the upper part of the towers NOT THE GAWDDAM TRUNK FLOOR., Stitch weld easy shit in the engine compartment.


Get Good suspension...I wonder if searching some Nissan build here could lead you somewhere?



There is no reason to fuck with a V6. The moment you decide to change or fix anything those 2 more cylinders costs 50% more.
2 is 50% of 4, so 50% more for nothing a 4 can't do.
Quite familiar with the S12 bodyshell, it is not particularly strong...even had a whole afternoon with a bunch of works Nissan drivers and co-driver who were in the V6 models "They are SOOOOOOOoooooooOOOO SLOW!!!"
or "A Group N stock Lancia Intergrale 8v (First year turbo 4wd 8v) is MUCH FASTER, it really is remarkably slow"


Have fun..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Haha nice shout-out to Elmira. Well I figured the v6 would give us a little more power while staying NA and stock, people swear by the vg30. Maybe not in the s12 configuration but out of a 300zx etc. they can be great. The KA or SR swap is wayy more involved, but we are big fans of the KA motor. We would definitely be avoiding the SR20DET because we don't want to be in any turbo classes really, and in fact can't really be because we will have novice licenses. We certainly aren't looking for big power, we aren't even looking to really be competitive, just have some fun.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.

If you can build it for $5k, you'll be in a small minority. You must also budget for all your personnal safety gear, approved helmets, HANS type device, suites etc. And as you say you still need to run the car, and that isn't cheap. Entries are $1000/weeknd give or take a couple hundred. Fuel is a major cost these days especially if you need to tow a long way. Tires aren't cheap, but you can often find reasonable ones used. Hotels and food... sure you can camp and eat at Mc D's to save some money.
You need to be realistic or you'll be one of the teams that either: 1) never completes the build because you ran out of money, or 2) does 1 or 2 events never to be seen again because you ran out of money.

-Martin.

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SmoothCustomer
Haha nice shout-out to Elmira. Well I figured the v6 would give us a little more power while staying NA and stock, people swear by the vg30. Maybe not in the s12 configuration but out of a 300zx etc. they can be great. The KA or SR swap is wayy more involved, but we are big fans of the KA motor. We would definitely be avoiding the SR20DET because we don't want to be in any turbo classes really, and in fact can't really be because we will have novice licenses. We certainly aren't looking for big power, we aren't even looking to really be competitive, just have some fun.

How is Auntie doing_
You figured V6 cause you ain't a crusty old sea dog who has spent half his life on loose surfaces.....
Sure some peeps swear by the VG30---I was pushing those way back in mid-late 80s
in applications that came with horrible LOOOOOoooooooooooooooOOOOOOONG inline 6--hell one friend after my urging him to look at the bottom end with the big main girdle, dropped one in some Mercedes---we smoked some spliff and were theorizing "Wull laddie if those Japs bastids can copy the fawkin Mercedes SOHC, it seems prefectly logical to restore the balance in the world by us'n dropping a Japanese replacement for that flexy beast back into a Krautski car of that generation.. Like light and dark, Japonaise showing the Allemani what they should have done.. Like dood, it's (biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig rasta like hit) eeerk it's eeerk, like cosmic justice (hack hack cough) whew

That shop WAS something like a scene from our heroes Cheech and Chong, but the VG30 was great:
in a PAVEMENT CAR
where the MOAR POWERZ was no thought at all on how to deal with..

Gravel is way different, grip for "AX" is the overarching concern....brakes cause we don't corner very fast---or have lots of 160mph air to cool 'em---and steering cause its fawkin easy to get behind or get "lost" in slow steering..

NOTE, You CAN think of turbos because its only Rally Americar which doesn't permit noobular crews, and they clearly driving that Americar around lost and the Fogg and will soon probably crash and burn. And disappear because of the Fogg.

Anyway KA24DE.. DE cause you want that pent roof combustion chamber.
That is more detonation resistant than morphodite 2 or 3 valve things and whatever else you read that talks about Horse Power, don't think about that too much: torque is the goal, and torque is pretty much: Engine Volume x dynamic compression ratio---and <----depends on shape and fuel used..

OK.

Are there other S12s to get spares for all the shit you're going to smash when you hit things?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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SmoothCustomer
I've been a lurker here too, and I hate to belabor this point (and the thread was a little bit long, so if this was covered I truly apologize) but when exactly do you guys think it is better to build, i.e. when will it actually save money? My brother and I are casually looking at cars at this stage. We are thinking something like a v6 Nissan s12 that runs and drives well would be very nice for the group 2 class. We are both very savvy mechanics, so things like a clutch, etc won't be an issue and we've also done our share of engine swaps so we would have a spare ready to go should we have a problem. I guess my real question is can someone actually list the costs (with some reasonable averages) of building a rally car (and DON'T include items like breaks/tires or other obvious wear items, these are a given)? As far as I can tell: cage, seats, harness, fire extinguishers, driver safety gear... is there any major expense I'm missing? I figure we can get a car for $1000 (trust me they are around here, and motors are even more abundant) I know a guy who is willing to build a cage (VERY experienced) for $600, and allow about $1000 for in car (i.e. not suits/helmets) safety including seats, harness, etc. bringing the grand total to $2600. I'll even round up to $3000 to not limit ourselves. Does this seem like a reasonable way to do things or am I just totally out of my mind thinking I could buy and build a car for that price? I won't be offended if you think I am, just tell me why!! But don't tell me it's the cage, because our guy is known to be reliable. Thanks guys!!!

Its going to cost more than that to build. I started out super budget, near stock $300 volvo, but with rally suspension. Used seats, used tires. but you have to make it a reliable car. Parts cost money. Rally cars eat parts. It would be silly to spend $1000 getting to and entering a rally and not have fresh belts, motor mount, radiator hoses, water pump, battery, fuel pump, etc. Saftey guys might harsh your mellow if your tie rods are loose... guess how i learned all this stuff?

Who is the VERY experienced/well known to be reliable cage guy? Has he built any rally cages? Many here including myself have had to cut out cages that seemed like a great deal...

You say don't include tires, but just about all rallycars need tires. Also most likely need at the very least some fresh shocks. Also intercom, rally computer, underbody protection, skid plate.

Also, I really don't want to be a jerk/spelling freak, but "breaks" is when things fail, "brakes" are the things that slow down cars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 11:29PM by alkun.

To be fair it was quite late when I posted that, I don't normally make grammatical or spelling errors such as those. I don't want to seem unappreciative of your advice but in my opinion you are proving my point, considering the reliability of Nissan cars especially motors like the aforementioned KA24DE. Of course we would carry spare parts like radiator hose etc. but I don't think things like that are going to be significantly expensive (I realize that little bits and pieces add up but parts for Nissan cars are not expensive at all, especially compared to something like a Volvo). Of course if something like a clutch needs replacing we are talking about a more expensive part but I don't consider that a necessary part for entering a rally because we would likely not attempt to make that repair at an event. You did help me out though because I didn't factor in the intercom, computer or skid plates but considering the cost we can get material at, that hopefully won't be a significant cost either. Again though, we aren't trying to be competitive and if factory shocks are in at least reasonable shape we would probably just run them. Would it be the ideal ride? I'm sure it wouldn't. Would it mean we can't race? I doubt it.

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1992 Galant VR-4. 372/1000.