Ive been lurking here on Rally Anarchy for awhile. I have been a worker for the last couple years as well. I hope to make the jump to back of the pack competitor in the next year or so. I have read about every "buy vs build" your first car thread I could find on the interwebs but feel a couple things havent been addressed about it, so I have questions.

It seems most builds start with something that needs a bunch of work to make it road ready. The 300 dollar Merkur and Volvos come to mind. You then have to spend the time and money to get them ready before spending the time and money on safety gear.

The "Buy It" camp seems to advise the 5-8k prebuilt cars, but in perusing ads it seems very very few of the cars at this point at rally ready. Either they are in need of updating, havent run in a few years or are worn out and need similar attention to the build cars.

Is there any reason it wouldnt be advisable to take a car that is safe and road worthy (although totally stock) and add the safety gear? A "build light" if you will? It seems it might be a was on price compared to an outdated worn car. Plus I like the idea of having a newer cage built to the newest specs.

Is it safe to assume seats and harnesses will need to be purchased no matter what road is taken?

not that i have built or even owned a rally car but i have lurked like you. My understanding of cars is when I work on something for the first time it is going to take me 3 times as long to do it, but if i put in that effort then I know how to fix it really quick when the time comes. So if your major concern is money factor, then its probably going to be cheaper to buy someone elses ride. Now if your not concerned with money or time factor then I say put some blood into a ride so that way you know how to fix everything when it really matters. Granted you might have to fix a rally car that you buy anyways. Like you said though, you have read a bunch of "build vs buy" threads. So you obiviously know that if you don't buy a rally car everyone will cringe for a second and then they will think wow, sweet a new rally car when you build one.

my advice is just theorectical as I have not done either, so take it for what it is worth.

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I am not an alien

Koolaid on specialstage just an FYI

The reason you cant find anything ready to rally is because to buy a rally car is not like going to walmart. Sit and wait, they will show up. Plus its easier to "update" some quirks on an already built and log booked car than to do everything from the beginning, and then add the fact that you're a newbie and still don't have the experience of what needs to be done to a car.

Just buy something period. Its the most sure way you will get to rally, otherwise you run the risk of never even starting a rally because you might take a turn to the never ending road of failed car builds. True story. Buy either a golf/civic/sentra/fwd impreza cheap reliable and room for growth.

I've had a bunch of rally cars, close to 10 I think. 2 were used rally cars, the rest I built. I like building cars, have the talent, equipment and skills to do so (and not take years getting one done) (just sayin')

There is no one answer that will fit everyone and every situation. The build an old Volvo answer is good and valid. The cars are stout, plentyful in many areas. Motors last forever and they can be a hoot to drive as the proper end pushes the car. You can usually count on used stuff to last on those cars. Back in the day they weren't a great choice, Datsun, Mazda, Toyota and Mitsu were all better choices and usually at the front of the pack. Those RWD cars are pretty scarce nowadays but the old Volvo is still around.

Pre-built stuff nowadays is a chore. You do get old stuff, worn stuff or new stuff that is overpriced. Personall I wouldn't rally a FWD car if it were free but I'm old and somewhat set in my ways.

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heymagic
...but I'm old and somewhat set in my ways.

That is the most polite way I've ever heard that condition described!

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Unless you have the knowledge and equipment to weld in your own cage, you're not really saving much by building your own car.

The cheapest I can price out a car is about $6000-$8000 worth of parts and labor to add to the existing chassis. That flux in price is how much of the labor you end up doing yourself.

As usual Gene hits the nail on on the head...

The buy it cheap is Ok predicated on the assumption that a person has rudimentary reading skills enough to read decent service books and has basic hand tools and the disciple to not go crazy and say--a recent real life example springs to mind: not believe some horseshit on the web about how DRASTICALLY air passing the 10-12" thru intake runners is going to heat up TOOOOOO MUCH!!!! and then without consulting his sensei, try welding a hunk of steel into his cast iron head to block the coolant outlet....and make a royal clusterfuck of things.

(average speed of a charge going thru runners is between 200-325 MPH or around 58,000 inches per second so 12" would take 1/4833th of a second---not a lotta time for conduction or radiation to heat things, right? Even if the math is wrong, you get the point...he should have called.)

The ONE GLARING advantage of the "Buy" method is instant gratification which of course for Americans is a god given right, no! A God ordained DUTY...

So if you build, you're attacking the economic model that gave us uh um The Housing Crisis..
Wait.

I know! Which gave us DEBT! And debt--and credit is what made America great!
(actually it is but that's another story)


The BULK of cars out there all need lots of re-doing anyway. Tired big ticket things like bent and junk anyway suspension, tired belts, hacked to shit wiring---which 99out of 10 guys aren't good at (they think too much and decide to re-wire crap that works like blinkers, taillights, stop lamps , blowers, dash that works...it's one of the most puzzling things why so many decide to fuck with un-needed re-wiring.)

Thing is unless you buy the consumerist model 100% and pay old grouchy geezers like Gene or Robert "Service Nazi" (go ahead, mention the war, neither he nor his Dad did it, but grandfather designed aircraft for the baddies) to make things right and pay bazzillions of dollars
eventually, sooner or later you will have to change bearings, bang in a clutch, weld some dumb bracket that the previous guy made outta 16g to mount the sump guard ---I've seen that!----

So yeah you gotta get out and drive, but you equally must learn to work on the car too..

One problem for you in Michigan's thumb is finding cheap rust free cars period, much less the ones that are so much cheaper to EVENTUALLY mod in a selctive and progressive manner.

Where precisely are you?

Do you understand why we talk so much of the importance of having affordable final drive? and eventually of affordable gearsets?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
Do you understand why we talk so much of the importance of having affordable final drive? and eventually of affordable gearsets?

Nein.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

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BillyElliot
Unless you have the knowledge and equipment to weld in your own cage, you're not really saving much by building your own car.

The cheapest I can price out a car is about $6000-$8000 worth of parts and labor to add to the existing chassis. That flux in price is how much of the labor you end up doing yourself.

I would likely rely on TRF for the cage work. I trust my welding on a horse gate and thats about it.

I come up with similar numbers myself when looking to build a a car. But it seems most "buy" cars will also need a few grand added to the budget for updates and repairs. Obviously cars like the Ushers VW come up that are reasonably priced and ready to go (however budgeting also for seat swaps and other driver preferences) but those types of deals are not necessarily super common.

One of the big issues I see with buying is you are limited to what is abailable when you are looking. I was a Honda tech in my previous to Corporate America life. I worked at both dealerships and a Honda-only independent so I am most comfortable with them. Can I work on other cars? Sure. I even spend a year in hell at an Audi dealer. But if I have limited time, the best use of it is to work on what I already know. MK2 VWs are pretty common in rally and I happen to have a Jetta in my shop that is mechanically sound, but I no longer enjoy messing with European cars. I also have a 93 Civic hatch that I recently picked up that is mechanically sound and clean. I would much rather cage the Honda of the two. It seems alot of builds get derailed by engine swaps, final drive changes and other upgrades.

When I have that fistful of cash am I at the mercy of the classifieds? What is the average time people look for a built car?

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john vanlandingham


The buy it cheap is Ok predicated on the assumption that a person has rudimentary reading skills enough to read decent service books and has basic hand tools and the disciple to not go crazy and say--a recent real life example springs to mind: not believe some horseshit on the web

I have the tools and I passed 3rd grade reading, however I do plan on installing one of those electric superchargers I saw on the web. Once I get enough skillz to run boost anyway.

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john vanlandingham
The ONE GLARING advantage of the "Buy" method is instant gratification which of course for Americans is a god given right, no! A God ordained DUTY...

This is true. I love baseball, apple pie and mom. I would hate to let everybody down.

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john vanlandingham
The BULK of cars out there all need lots of re-doing anyway. Tired big ticket things like bent and junk anyway suspension, tired belts, hacked to shit wiring---which 99out of 10 guys aren't good at (they think too much and decide to re-wire crap that works like blinkers, taillights, stop lamps , blowers, dash that works...it's one of the most puzzling things why so many decide to fuck with un-needed re-wiring.)

I work in technical training. I know this all too well. I have seen some scary hackery at some of the rallys too. Not saying everybody does it, and I know things happen in the heat of battle but it can be a headache. I went through some of that with an ex Spec RX7 car I had for awhile. Really wished I looked under the dash before handing over the money.

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john vanlandingham
So yeah you gotta get out and drive, but you equally must learn to work on the car too..

Just hope to avoid unnecessary work, know what I mean?

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john vanlandingham
One problem for you in Michigan's thumb is finding cheap rust free cars period, much less the ones that are so much cheaper to EVENTUALLY mod in a selctive and progressive manner.

Where precisely are you?

Volvos and Merkurs are pretty much non existant around here. There are some Hondas but all I have to do is cross the Ohio line and the Honda selection increases 100 fold. Even Cavaliers and first gen Focuses (Foci?) are getting rarer and are already rusted.

I am in sunny Attica Township with an Imlay City mailing address.

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john vanlandingham
Do you understand why we talk so much of the importance of having affordable final drive? and eventually of affordable gearsets?

Yep. Gears make my 41 horse tractor pull a house but allow it a top speed of 12 MPH

I bought some rally cars and I built others. Both provided a means to meet my goal of driving rallys.

I have not seen a good value used rally car for sale in a long time however.

I personally like FWD and that fact the only safe way to drive one on a gravel road is to drive it like you stole it and are being chased by the very pissed off former owner who is armed to the teeth. That works for me. In my mind RWD takes finesse and talent - things I am a little short on. FWD, put your right foot on the floor - if you lift you die.

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In the long run reality always wins.

James,
You're a funny guy ...electric blower aka bilge blower . We saw so many ads for those tears ago when my son was little.

I'm a Honda guy also, well maybe an Asian car guy versus the Euro trash stuff also. Pull the whole front core support on a Jetta just ot change an alternator?? How clever !

Hondas work pretty well in the rally game , even in Europe and Oz, so not the worst decision in the world.

No one seems to have answered the question...

Why start with an older more worn out car when you could start with a newer one and spend less time/money replacing stuff? (or something similar). The reason is, all the stuff that is worn out, you'll be replacing regardless, so why pay extra to buy, then throw out better stuff?

Stuff that falls into this category... suspension, brakes, wheel/tires, seats/interior...

Yes any rally car you buy will need stuff replaced, but so do all rally cars all the time, it's called maintenance, you can't avoid it especially in rally! Sure there are some completely worn out cars for sale, but at the right price, even those are a useful platform... if the cage is still good/current, at the very least you have the 'blue-print' and a log book. Even worn out cars, if they can pass tech, you could run as-is and update slowly by replacing worn out parts as you can afford between events.

What seems to happen is a lot of people buy a less than perfect used rally car, then decide they must fully re-build before hitting the stages... if you are going to do that you might just as well start with a fresh build (unless of cours ethe cage is current, and what made you shy away from a full build in the first place).

It's impossible to say how long a new build takes, as that is dependant on how much time you spend doing it, how much help you have, what facilities and tools you have, how skilled you are, how quick you can affor do to do it.

Timmy is at one end of the scale at what 5 years or so? A friend of mine built a car in 1 month, so that's at the other end. I took 2 years, had big shop, tools, skills and funds, but was also racing stock cars every week all summer.

Unless you really want to build one before you hit the stages, buy one, think of it as disposable, start building the one you want to replace it with as soon as you can... when you wreck the first one, you'll be halfway ready with the second one.

Good luck...Martin.

There aren't that many built cars out there.

I am solidly in the Build camp. I bought my first rally car. So did a few friends. Guess what, we all lost money when we sold those piles and decided to build the car we really wanted in the first place.

I am a firm and solid believer of leaving whatever car you do decide to rally with nearly stock for at least one event.
Choose a car that doesn't have huge limitations from early on. It doesn't have to be something you know, if you are a mechanical inclined person things like specific marquees shouldn't really matter.
Don't have a big budget? You cannot afford to build an Open Evo or Subaru. It will cost in the 10s of thousands to maintain an open class car, not to mention buying tires.

It really doesn't matter which car you have or start with, you will end up spending around $8-10k getting it onto the stages. If you can find a decently built car for under that, you are off to a good start.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
There aren't that many built cars out there.

I am solidly in the Build camp. I bought my first rally car. So did a few friends. Guess what, we all lost money when we sold those piles and decided to build the car we really wanted in the first place.

It seems most of the cars out there are hidden away and you have to know a guy that knows a guy to find one. At least thats what my observations lead me to believe. How many 5k ready to go cars are listed right now, for example?

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NoCoast

I am a firm and solid believer of leaving whatever car you do decide to rally with nearly stock for at least one event.

That is a better way to state what I am trying to figure out. Is there any reason doing this is a bad idea? Why not take a decent road car that is mechanically sound and just add safety gear to get on stage?


This is where I am at in the ol' thought process. Say a fellow had to goal of being ready for LSPR this year, 7 months away. Maybe even wanted to wait until SnoDrift '14 which is around 10 months away now. The fellow doesnt have a car and doesnt really see anything that tickles his fancy right now for sale. Should he post a wanted ad and hope something comes along? Or should he cage a car and spend the summer finalizing safety? Does it really matter if the engine is only 90 horse and the suspension/brakes are stock for the first couple rallies?