This plan can work just fine as long as you have realistic expectations. Stock suspension won't take as much abuse as rally stuff - If you're willing to slow down for the rough stuff and lift for the big jumps, then you'll be fine. Same goes for lots of other parts. You will end up replacing those parts, and as long as you go in knowing that, go for it.

I think you might be underestimating the work that it will take to just create the basic rally car, though. Cage, seats, belts, mudflaps, skidplates, etc. And after you have all that stuff in place, there's sorting to be done. A built rally car could have lots of sorting complete. What do I mean by sorting? One example: In our WRX, we had a wire to a relay that came loose during a rally. Caused the power to the rally computer to be intermittent. Turned out I did a crappy job of crimping the wire connector in the first place. Re-crimped, and now we're good. This is but one a many issues that new rally cars will have and you will need to sort.

My advice: Be patient, look wait for a decent car to show up, and be willing to travel to get it. Our old RX-7 sold in that $6k range and it was ready to go - needed nothing. They are out there, and almost always you will pay less money for the car and pile of spare parts than went to buy/build it in the first place.

If you really have a desire to build a car, do it after you've rallied one for a while and the car you build will be so much better.

Doug

[/quote]

That is a better way to state what I am trying to figure out. Is there any reason doing this is a bad idea? Why not take a decent road car that is mechanically sound and just add safety gear to get on stage?


This is where I am at in the ol' thought process. Say a fellow had to goal of being ready for LSPR this year, 7 months away. Maybe even wanted to wait until SnoDrift '14 which is around 10 months away now. The fellow doesnt have a car and doesnt really see anything that tickles his fancy right now for sale. Should he post a wanted ad and hope something comes along? Or should he cage a car and spend the summer finalizing safety? Does it really matter if the engine is only 90 horse and the suspension/brakes are stock for the first couple rallies?[/quote]

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Logdog

It seems most of the cars out there are hidden away and you have to know a guy that knows a guy to find one. At least thats what my observations lead me to believe. How many 5k ready to go cars are listed right now, for example?

My first rally car was $6k. It made it half way through the Gorman rally before the crank pulley sheared off. Then came a new (used) motor and a year later I did Rim of The World rally and made it 2/3's of the way through that rally before it caught on fire (cracked oil feed line on the turbo)!

A used car that will get you through 3-4 events without major issues costs more than $5k....

I have a fire breathing Civic in the classifieds if you're looking for a well equipped 2wd car for under $14k, if you want instant gratification …..

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Logdog
Does it really matter if the engine is only 90 horse and the suspension/brakes are stock for the first couple rallies?

Depends on the brakes....and the weight of the car.
Depends on the weight of the car and the axle ratio if 90 bhp is OK

A 2850 lb car with 3.31 axle and 90 hp is a waste of time..In My Ever So Humble Opinion
You aren't competing.
Participating yes but you aren't competing..

I have always said "you wanna drive rally, then drive rally"
But some of us came from other harder more intense or flat out crazy sports with inanely good fast machinery...things roughly as quick on dirt as the old GpB cars..
Years of things like that light and fast and powerful..

Hard to suggest somebody just putter down the road...

But then again even the concept "competing" is a point of view depending on who you are and whatcher done..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I'll disagree with John a bit on this, stockish is fine for the first couple events. Rally consists of certain procedures that need to be learned, the timing,scoring,route books, notes, registration, scrutineering, servicing, control zones plenty to learn as well as the actual learn how to drive or co-drive, the nature of roads, changing conditions, dust, gravel, swept gravel, ditch hooking, braking. Lots of stuff to learn. I can't see anyone competing the first couple events, even with other motorsport history.

You need skid plates, you need decent brakes (stock with great pads will work), you need good tires and you should have good suspension such as Johns. Now you can add power and speed as you go, but not without good suspension. Rarely can anyone drive flat out even with 90 hp with stock suspension. You'll spend $1000 for junk, $1500 for better junk or around $2k something that will last well, handle as it probably should and have close to the cell phone tech service (keep your phone battery charged). Tires and suspension are two areas that really can't be short cutted without a penalty.

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heymagic
I'll disagree with John a bit on this, stockish is fine for the first couple events. Rally consists of certain procedures that need to be learned, the timing,scoring,route books, notes, registration, scrutineering, servicing, control zones plenty to learn as well as the actual learn how to drive or co-drive, the nature of roads, changing conditions, dust, gravel, swept gravel, ditch hooking, braking. Lots of stuff to learn. I can't see anyone competing the first couple events, even with other motorsport history.

You need skid plates, you need decent brakes (stock with great pads will work), you need good tires and you should have good suspension such as Johns. Now you can add power and speed as you go, but not without good suspension. Rarely can anyone drive flat out even with 90 hp with stock suspension. You'll spend $1000 for junk, $1500 for better junk or around $2k something that will last well, handle as it probably should and have close to the cell phone tech service (keep your phone battery charged). Tires and suspension are two areas that really can't be short cutted without a penalty.

Stockish is OK to start, but after two events when you understand the difference between an ATC and an MTC, it would really suck to have a car that costs $5k to upgrade the final drive and gearbox to something decent rather than $1k-$2k. So, should you buy something stock that needs another $5k to not suck or $1500 to not suck?

Take this for what it's worth, coming from a guy who's decided, "f*** this expensive ass rally s***, I'll just run a couple LeMons events a year to avoid the urge to str33t r@c3 durnk in a school zone." (the preceding has been edited with l33t characters to hopefully fool the search engine of the poster's in$ur@nc3 company, which has been known to cancel the policies of those who participate in motorsports).

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

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heymagic
I'll disagree with John a bit on this, stockish is fine for the first couple events. Rally consists of certain procedures that need to be learned, the timing,scoring,route books, notes, registration, scrutineering, servicing, control zones plenty to learn as well as the actual learn how to drive or co-drive, the nature of roads, changing conditions, dust, gravel, swept gravel, ditch hooking, braking. Lots of stuff to learn. I can't see anyone competing the first couple events, even with other motorsport history.

You need skid plates, you need decent brakes (stock with great pads will work), you need good tires and you should have good suspension such as Johns. Now you can add power and speed as you go, but not without good suspension. Rarely can anyone drive flat out even with 90 hp with stock suspension. You'll spend $1000 for junk, $1500 for better junk or around $2k something that will last well, handle as it probably should and have close to the cell phone tech service (keep your phone battery charged). Tires and suspension are two areas that really can't be short cutted without a penalty.

If one thing from the Cojo video tells me... Cody's been running since 2006 on some KYB AGX gas shocks and kicking everybody's ass on them. You don't need a super suspension or fancy 200+ hp motor and transmission more than you need a "zero fucks given" attitude and a heavy right foot. I'm really interested to see how he's going to do at Oregon with a proper suspension on his car.

But not saying that you should just run some AGX shocks and replace what you have. If anything, a stock motor with a good gearbox (or at least final drive) and good suspension is all you really need to put the hurt on 90% of the teams out there.

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Logdog
When I have that fistful of cash am I at the mercy of the classifieds? What is the average time people look for a built car?

I told myself I was going to buy a car at the end of October in 2007. I was hunting down a lot of cars. Mainly Matt Johnston's old Civic that I am sure is still rotting in a garage somewhere. I was buying my $2900 VW around March of 2008? Then probably after spending another $8000 putting in seats (car was a 2001 P class so it still had stock seats), belts, skids, new brakes all around, replace all belts, tune up, some cage additions (which I got ripped off on) I was ready(ish) then shit hit the fan before rally WV and I saw metal bits in the oil. Turns out it wasn't even anything and I just had flakes from when I was grinding shit that were in my oil pan before I emptied the motor. Either way, I got to running LSPR 2008.


But ideally you should have been looking for cars a few months ago. Evan Moen let his Integra Type R go for a song at $12,000. Either way you look at it, you're going to spend $8000-$12000 if you want a good and reliable car when you first hit the stages. Plan what you want, keep it simple when you start out and get seat time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 03:09AM by BillyElliot.

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Doug Heredos
I think you might be underestimating the work that it will take to just create the basic rally car, though. Cage, seats, belts, mudflaps, skidplates, etc.

Ya, it's one thing to strip a car down, its another to put it back together properly.

Building a skidplate is not a simple endeavour (for most people) for instance. And go price out the cost of metal for one. You as joe-blow walking into a metal shop typically involves you lubing up first.

I have saw exactly ONE rally car built cheaper than the equivalent could be bought already built, and that's because the guy is the cheapest sonofabitch I know.

Every other one is either 1) Taking years to build and/or 2) Costing way more than $10k.

I'll lay it out again (warning, Canadian content incoming). Up here:

FIA seats $1000 new (for those tubular sparco ones)
Belts $440 (gforce fia)
cage $2500 (cheapest CARS cage requires you to go to saskatoon)
car $2000 (a running car in good shape, non-rusty anything is going to cost you that much)
suspension $2k (JVL, hotbits, whatever, and this is a guesstimate)
brakes $200 (you need some sort of performance pad)
skid plates/puckboard $400 (if you build the skid plates yourself)
gravel tires $400 (I haven't saw useable used gravel tires for less than $100ea in a long time)

So... we're at $8940 and really, there is still a ton left (intercom, rally odo isn't a must in western Canada but handy). Try and get anyone to build you FIA legal mounts for your seats. $400 minimum all said and done. I certainly don't have the tools to do it.

And that's the whole other thing we aren't taking into account. Even if you raided Princess Auto (our version of harbour freight), we're talking thousands of $$$ in tools when all is said and done to just build the car. And not everyone lives where it doesn't snow, so building a car outside is "kind of" difficult when 6 months of the year is below freezing. Yea, it rains in the PNW, but all I need to deal with rain is a slightly raised area of ground, lay down a couple tarps, and put up a couple hundred dollar portable garage.

I'm still solidly in the "buy" camp. You typically get more bang for the buck. My current car to build was well north of $40k (go ask Andre at SwapShop if you like), but I bought it for a bit over $20k. Of course, a large part of that bill is labour, but me laying on the cold garage floor when it's -20*C is a COST in my mind.

I bought the Talon for $2700. In the end (including transport, import, and reprep) I was at $6k on the nose for a well built, solid car. And there have been other deals like it in the past two years (also in the US) that would have been just as easy for others to have bought and rallied (even more so, as you don't have to spend $1k+ on FIA seats).

Point is, unless you LIKE a challenge in the garage, buy it built. You'll be doing enough wrenching between events as it is We're talking about racing (I assume), not wrenching.

Some excellent stuff here.

Firstly: If you want to rally but you don't see anything that 'tickles your fancy' to purchase for said rallying: You clearly don't want to rally bad enough and you should leave your man card at the door when you leave. Go tickle your fancy on your own time.

Second: If you do buy newer and get a cage and plan on running stock stuff, its true you are simply participating. Titus called it the soul herpes of a generation. Big long talk on getting trophies for participating. If you are of an older persuasion I put it thusly: Patton would not give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. Take your money, continue to save it and instead of wasting it on a new car or an old car catch a flight and attend a rally school for a week as a vacation. Do this, and be glad for actual experience that cost you even less than a bought car OR a build car. Experience that included tips and tricks on actually competing in a race, not just participating.

Third: If your blood then boils for it NOW NOW NOW, rent a car from any one of the many folks that have more than one and get out there... fresh in the knowledge that you can try to go flat out without worrying about spoiling your investment in a car. Because it isn't yours.

If you decide that its too rich for your blood after the rally school, or you just cant contemplate the thought of wrenching on a car, new or old, nearly every night of the week when you come home from work... you win. You didn't just take on a project and find out like many other similar minded folks that you're over your head and rapidly going under... Or you just realized that spending 8-20k on a completely built car in a crapstorm economy wasn't the best financial move to make now that XYZ just happened at home and it needs funds for repair.

I don't want to poo poo on my favorite motorsport, but you *HAVE* to be realistic. New or old, built or bought, this is going to cost you buku bucks. Even if you find the perfect five year old car that granny only drove to church on Sundays, it will cost you thousands of dollars to participate... independent of the costs of the vehicle.

---

Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

Just going to chip in from my own view - this being roadrace based experience with my dad, but I would damn well wager the same stuff applies.

Every car we've bought "ready to go" has turned out to have a whole bunch of warts that the seller knew about and we didn't know to ask about. You can make checklists of crap to ask about, poke around it all you want, so on and so forth, but there's always something and the seller almost by default knows better than you. And personally, I really hate finding stuff like that. I hate tearing apart other people's mistakes, hate having a car where you know it's just not completely right and there's not much you can do without a major rebuild. I'd far prefer to have something where, if there's anything wrong with it, it's my own damn fault.

Also, I for one like building the things.

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mekilljoydammit
Just going to chip in from my own view - this being roadrace based experience with my dad, but I would damn well wager the same stuff applies.

Every car we've bought "ready to go" has turned out to have a whole bunch of warts that the seller knew about and we didn't know to ask about. You can make checklists of crap to ask about, poke around it all you want, so on and so forth, but there's always something and the seller almost by default knows better than you. And personally, I really hate finding stuff like that. I hate tearing apart other people's mistakes, hate having a car where you know it's just not completely right and there's not much you can do without a major rebuild. I'd far prefer to have something where, if there's anything wrong with it, it's my own damn fault.

Also, I for one like building the things.

Well the first question is "Why they selling the thing so much time and money has been poured into?'

There's a veriety of reasons, life, the universe and everything, but the main thing is they don't love the car any more..

I still have the first rally car I built..because i still love it...and I respect it and remember all the hours of fun it gave me...what sorta person would part with something that brought them a lot of happiness and enlightenment?

So they don't lurv it---what is it they don't lurv about it anymore?

It isn't "fun enuf".. Well I say beating on anything is some fun, but just how much fun? And I presume we have competitive germs in our blood, so is it not fun in a competitive way?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yeah; the car's not competitive, or maybe it's not safe or reliable, or maybe they just realized all sorts of things they'd do differently. They always say it's about money of course. Maybe sometimes it is. I do know roadrace guys I would buy stuff from and have every confidence in - some guys are just willing to restart on a new platform because they think it might be better than what they're running, despite that what they're running works. I know other guys who would sell off stuff that's in their spare-shell-but-not-good-enough-for-us collection.

I dunno, maybe roadrace guys are just sketchier than rally guys, but somehow I'd be surprised.

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BillyElliot
I told myself I was going to buy a car at the end of October in 2007. I was hunting down a lot of cars. Mainly Matt Johnston's old Civic that I am sure is still rotting in a garage somewhere. I was buying my $2900 VW around March of 2008? Then probably after spending another $8000 putting in seats (car was a 2001 P class so it still had stock seats), belts, skids, new brakes all around, replace all belts, tune up, some cage additions (which I got ripped off on) I was ready(ish) then shit hit the fan before rally WV and I saw metal bits in the oil. Turns out it wasn't even anything and I just had flakes from when I was grinding shit that were in my oil pan before I emptied the motor. Either way, I got to running LSPR 2008.


But ideally you should have been looking for cars a few months ago. Evan Moen let his Integra Type R go for a song at $12,000. Either way you look at it, you're going to spend $8000-$12000 if you want a good and reliable car when you first hit the stages. Plan what you want, keep it simple when you start out and get seat time.

Having both bought a car and built a car, what would you tell yourself if you could travel back to October 2007?

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darkknight9
Some excellent stuff here.

Firstly: If you want to rally but you don't see anything that 'tickles your fancy' to purchase for said rallying: You clearly don't want to rally bad enough and you should leave your man card at the door when you leave. Go tickle your fancy on your own time.

Who doesnt love a good fancy tickling? I find it quit relaxing to get together and tickle fancies with my friends on the weekend.

I would like to get started in the next year. If I dont, I will just continue to work rallies and save money.

Quote
darkknight9

Second: If you do buy newer and get a cage and plan on running stock stuff, its true you are simply participating. Titus called it the soul herpes of a generation. Big long talk on getting trophies for participating. If you are of an older persuasion I put it thusly: Patton would not give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. Take your money, continue to save it and instead of wasting it on a new car or an old car catch a flight and attend a rally school for a week as a vacation. Do this, and be glad for actual experience that cost you even less than a bought car OR a build car. Experience that included tips and tricks on actually competing in a race, not just participating.

I dont necessarily see anything wrong with participating at the first couple rallies. It seems one of the number one things I hear when talking to people who have cars is that they were happy to just finish their first few rallies. That finishing was an accomplishment itself.

I did plan on attending Team Oneil before my first event. Whenever that may be.

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darkknight9

Third: If your blood then boils for it NOW NOW NOW, rent a car from any one of the many folks that have more than one and get out there... fresh in the knowledge that you can try to go flat out without worrying about spoiling your investment in a car. Because it isn't yours.

My understanding with motorsports rentals was "you break it, you buy it". Is this not true in rally?

Quote
darkknight9

If you decide that its too rich for your blood after the rally school, or you just cant contemplate the thought of wrenching on a car, new or old, nearly every night of the week when you come home from work... you win. You didn't just take on a project and find out like many other similar minded folks that you're over your head and rapidly going under... Or you just realized that spending 8-20k on a completely built car in a crapstorm economy wasn't the best financial move to make now that XYZ just happened at home and it needs funds for repair.


I don't want to poo poo on my favorite motorsport, but you *HAVE* to be realistic. New or old, built or bought, this is going to cost you buku bucks. Even if you find the perfect five year old car that granny only drove to church on Sundays, it will cost you thousands of dollars to participate... independent of the costs of the vehicle.

Looking back at my posts I realize I didnt do a very good job of saying I am not looking for the cheapest way to rally. I know its expensive. I know a weekend is a big chunk of change. I know it requires working on week nights. I dont plan on trying to run a full season of rally. I have been working 3 rallies or so a year. If I could participate in 2 and work 1, I think I would be happy. Unless I get bit by the bug so hard I start running up credit cards to pay for it all in hopes the sponsers discover me and I get my own brand of Xtreme Beet Juice to pitch.

I realize the internet will never agree on anything. It just seems like buying a car like this
http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,68865,69232#msg-69232
and finishing the safety gear in order to get on stage, and then upgrading as you break/get experienced/win lottery wouldnt be a bad way to get started. Maybe I underestimated all the cars. I didnt realize they were all running full zoot race suspensions and built motors. But thats why we ask questions, to learn stuff.

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Logdog
Is there any reason it wouldnt be advisable to take a car that is safe and road worthy (although totally stock) and add the safety gear? A "build light" if you will? It seems it might be a was on price compared to an outdated worn car. Plus I like the idea of having a newer cage built to the newest specs.

Is it safe to assume seats and harnesses will need to be purchased no matter what road is taken?

Information is available.

Pages 83-93 detail the production classes.

29-36 are your safety equipment.

Read. Gain knowledge. Ask better questions.

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Logdog
It seems it might be a was on price compared to an outdated worn car.

Asking them clearly is another plus.

---

Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.