Something to think about in the car types/method of aquiring discussion

With the hype of "lets buy this car and just put a cage in it and run it production class!" I present a bit of reading material. A very small bit. Out of the 180+ entrants in the reported REGIONAL events last year for RA, (there are a few events without statistics/results) the following represent all of the available Production and Production GT entries for the entire year.

First number is overall position in the rally. Second is number in class.

9	1	P	262	Steve Brockelman / Dustin Masters	1991 GMC SONOMA 
14	2	P	902	Jordan Guitar / Daniel McCarron		2009 Honda Fit
6	1	P	334	John Black / Lori Stone			1994 Ford Ranger
8	2	P	802	Chris Rosner / Victoria Rosner		1995 Geo Metro
4	1	P	334	John Black / Marra Estep		1994 Ford Ranger
4	1	P	34	John Black / Lori Stone			2000 Ford Focus
2	1	P	573	Brian Penza / Neil Salmons		2008 Honda Civic Si
17	1	P	222	Bruce Tabor / John Elkin		1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R
		PGT	150	Ivaylo Draganov / Vladimir Yanev	2002 Subaru WRX
8	1	PGT	271	Matthew Tabor / Kathryn Hansen		2002 Subaru WRX
16	2	PGT	231	Kristen Tabor / Janice Tabor		1999 Subaru 2.5RS
2	1	PGT	525	David Allan / Tammy Allan		2004 Subaru WRX

That's 12 entries out of the available data of 181 entries. 6.6%. It looks like they did fantastically in their classes. Of the two that got 'podiums' One was in a field of 21 finishers, the other just three.

I might look at this and think that maybe there are lots of folks that see the folly of running stock components in a rally car, so they just don't. But if some folks want to see how quickly new cars fall apart... I wish you luck and advise you to mount at least a manual boat crank near the tongue of your tow trailer.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. I do, however, know the Prod cars on the west coast (and the Sonoma), the events in which they ran, what happened, and why simply snapshotting RA-only statistics over such a brief period tells you almost nothing.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

hoche, how many people run semi tractors in stage rally?

How many people run garbage trucks in stage rally?

How many run unmodified iron curtain soviet cars in stage rally?

And why not? They aren't competitive, they're loaded down with crap or they're under engineered and not assembled for such things?

Perhaps the same thoughts apply to running production class (bone stock save for safety modifications) given that so many folks chose to run something else. That's the purpose of the commentary. Aimed at some other folks round here but there it is.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

for the class results it would be useful to point out how many entries there were in each class. They did great in the class but if there was only one entered...

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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KTurner
for the class results it would be useful to point out how many entries there were in each class. They did great in the class but if there was only one entered...

Out of all available entries for the *entire season of regionals... these are the only ones. Far more events than people listed above means a really good chance at being 1st or second since there were no other production class entries.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

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darkknight9
Out of all available entries for the *entire season of regionals... these are the only ones. Far more events than people listed above means a really good chance at being 1st or second since there were no other production class entries.

kinda like Verena Mei winning Spec B nationals except you can find the results

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

So putting together a stock ish vehicle is not a bad way to go? I for one appreciate the break down as I am looking at getting started and debating between buying whatever I come across or buying a solid stock crap box and putting a cage on it.... by the way I'm new here so hi.

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Slow down you will go faster
This space for rent or lease

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KTurner

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darkknight9
Out of all available entries for the *entire season of regionals... these are the only ones. Far more events than people listed above means a really good chance at being 1st or second since there were no other production class entries.

kinda like Verena Mei winning Spec B nationals except you can find the results

There's plenty of guys who run P class cars and keep talking about "podium results" when there are 3 or less finishers/entries in the class.

I was somewhat excited to see Honda offers up $500 for winning B-spec races with a Honda Fit and $1000 for winning the championship, but that's B-Spec and only National entries. Wah-wah-wah.

If they made B-spec entries national classed but gave them a regional entry fee it might actually pick up some pace. There's really no point in spending $2000 for an entry to go race against yourself.

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markbobace
So putting together a stock ish vehicle is not a bad way to go? I for one appreciate the break down as I am looking at getting started and debating between buying whatever I come across or buying a solid stock crap box and putting a cage on it.... by the way I'm new here so hi.

It alll depends on who you are, what skills and resources you have and what your expectations are COMPARED to your past experiences..

For some, many perhaps, who have never done any other motorsport at any level, evidently they are saying its fine to motor along at 38-40 mph looking at the scenery and content to "just finish"..

Others--admittedly fewer nowdays, like me maybe they spent 20 years on serious race machinery and have a completely different vision of what "competing" means..

I just got a Google chat thing from a newbular-ish guy out here ---who had done other things but just a few rallied---and finsished around 3rd-4th on all the stages at the last one. hang on...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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BillyElliot
If they made B-spec entries national classed but gave them a regional entry fee it might actually pick up some pace. There's really no point in spending $2000 for an entry to go race against yourself.

if spec B disowned the mazda2 it might be interesting

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

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darkknight9
Perhaps the same thoughts apply to running production class (bone stock save for safety modifications) given that so many folks chose to run something else. That's the purpose of the commentary. Aimed at some other folks round here but there it is.

Nah. People generally run something else because they're a) under the mistaken impression that if they have more horsepower or a fancy hydraulic handbrake or ginormous brakes or whatever they will go faster when it won't because what they really need is a bunch of seat time, or b) they actually DO push the car to the point where they need all that crap.

The first group would generally be fine with near-Production cars.


Note: I am not a believer in the Production class as it stands. It was for manufacturers and has strict rules that are rarely enforced these days. Almost everyone except the old farts think it's supposed to be a cheap class. I do, however, think there should be a near-Production class; one that allows limited modifications - just enough to make a car a little more robust and a little more fun. Something like the CRS's P-Stock class.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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john vanlandingham

It alll depends on who you are, what skills and resources you have and what your expectations are COMPARED to your past experiences..

For some, many perhaps, who have never done any other motorsport at any level, evidently they are saying its fine to motor along at 38-40 mph looking at the scenery and content to "just finish"..

Others--admittedly fewer nowdays, like me maybe they spent 20 years on serious race machinery and have a completely different vision of what "competing" means..

I just got a Google chat thing from a newbular-ish guy out here ---who had done other things but just a few rallied---and finsished around 3rd-4th on all the stages at the last one. hang on...

For me budget is the biggest restriction. I come from a motor sports background and the biggest benefit that has given me is a good grounding in reallity about racing as a hobby. Not only do I not expect to get rich and famous but I hope not to go broke and get divorced by following my dream of racing.

So as it stands now i can look at all sorts of (cheap or broken or both) race prepped cars that I have to shoe horn into a "beginer" class. I.E. a currently open dsm that I would need to find non turbo set of maifolds to run open light vs buying a four cylinder ranger or honda civic and putting a cage in it. (Can weld and have helped build race cars before)

The end result is going to have a good time (hopefully) and go as fast as I can while being able to still afford to go to the next event.

What i get from this thread is that in the current enviroment of rally we could still hope to be upfront on a blue moon or at least not in the rear. A cheap car with cheap parts is kind of interesting at this point.

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Slow down you will go faster
This space for rent or lease

How many of these "production" cars are actually legal to the class rules? Few or none is most likely the answer. Lots of people enter the class thinking they are production but it is damn near impossible if your car is greater than 5 years old. I ran production for my first few races since I bought a "production" class car. Well after awhile it became obvious to me that I was technically breaking the rules with the way my car was setup. Even a grill from 1989 on a 1987 isn't legal. So I moved to G2 and get my butt spanked on a regular basis, its still fun, and I'm motivated to drive faster.

The p class isn't regulated unless you run at a national level so why? I don't need a participation trophy. Yes, a slightly modified (run-what-you-brung) class would be nice but isn't that what regional G2 is?

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Dave Grenwis - DG Rally - www.dgrally.com

If you argue that stuff about car performance is going to dictate stage times, the only "fair" way to have a class with rules limited to limited prep is to have massively larger amounts of rules than rally folks seem to want to, IMO. Or just mandate something classed in SCCA Improved Touring plus rally specific stuff and cage. Which actually might work and be interesting if it could be done without turning into a pissing match over who owns what bits of the rulebook.

Purely pragmatically though, I don't think the existence of such a class would matter much other than potentially giving trophies to people further down the overall standings.

The real problem with P classes is that after a very short while the "just participating" part wears thin and guys want to have more fun and we're car guys and more fun mean more performance.... Guy Light and Mike Halley were 2 BIG---and with "Mad Mike" aka "Angry Man" vocefierous proponents but both were well know cheaters in ever area you could think of.. Halley admitted cheating on some thread on SS.com when there was discussion on changing the rules to allow stitch welding and reinforcemnts saying "We ALL did it all the time, everybody did, it was the only way to make them last"
So thru the SCCA "good Ol' Boy" network cars would be thoroughly stitch welded and the denizens in the class simply wouldn't protest each other "so it's all even"..

They lobbied thru fully adjustable suspension, then alternate gear sets "for reliability", LSD "if offered in Blah blah"

Light had connections in Michigan and knowing there was almost always nobody in class would change cams and compression so the things--espeiclly the FWD Chevrolet V6 things ---which were 8:1 compression motors which you could not hear idle stock , would idle at around 1400-15000 like BA-BA-BA-BA-BA-BA kicking dust at idle 4-5 feet behind the car...

I build engines, 60 degree V4s of which the Chev is just longer, I know what a POS 8:1 motor spunds like and pops out the back like.
At some event here I got a baseball hat and wandered up and---whithout a lotta effort some will say---laid it on thick like "Gee gosh golly Mister, that baby sounds nasty, idles mean like, knowwhatImean Mister? Lissen at that! Wha kinnda cam you gots in that Mister?"

Light all straight faced "Uh its a Production car, so its all stock, you just advance the ignition 5 degrees and it sounds like that"

Total bullshit.
As Halley said "we all did it, we had to"
When Hurst was hired as Tech Guy at RarryAmericarz he said to be that every single PGT car he looked at was rife with intentional cheats, blantant things like carving up bumper supports to nothing to save 40-80lbs..
He said "why should we even have this class if the guys don't want to be in it and want to mod everything on the cars?"

Why? Those cheesy trophies ARE important to some people. Imagined perceived status is important--just ignore the overall 2nd from last OA on every stage season long--except 3 stages with lots of offs for other guys he came 3rd and 4th from last on 2-3 stages like P Champ-peen Trevor Donison did....

Same in the long lamented Pick up class....Champ-peen Kendal Russel in her second full National season caught by mere clubbie Volvo 240 perv John Lane in under 4 miles with a 1 minute gap...(and when she refused to give way "because she was in the National, she was PRO!" Lane, never really the brightest guy crashes in the dust--instead of punting her off with a little nudge like he shoulda if he had thought.

The only way starting in a basic "kinda stock" spec class works is if the car can be kept and progressively upgraded as the crew gets itchier for MORE FUN ---without dumping the car at a big loss and building another better car...

And that progressive upgrading better not costs 10s of thousands at a whack to do... cause like one boy that bought his Blue Subie found after4 events he spends 10-15K on a gearbox, and does one event then poof, haven't seen him is a couple of years.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.