CARS Rule change feedback wanted...

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Morison

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Anders Green
Oh, a new CARS rules thread? Awesome!

CARS gets shit on for not getting feedback on rule proposals
CARS gets shit on for asking for feedback on rule proposals

And people wonder why web forums aren't taken seriously.

And Shirley you must wonder why so many otherwise experienced (3-4 times you experience, Jorge's experience, your admitted unqualified "Tech" guy), friendly, helpful people do not take you and the current Calgary area Board members seriously.

WE are more serious than "y'all".
About what we care in believe in..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Morison


"D. Request to change wording for seat expiry date.
"The CARS board felt that we should investigate further why FIA has set an expiry of five years."
Doesn't it make sense to try an understand WHY the standard has a 5 year expiry before you decide to ignore it?
If John actually delivers on his long list of other federations not enforcing the age limit on seats it would be a great addition to the information.

If John has a moment. He is a one man business with a long list of another 12-13 cars cars to deliver suspension for to add to the list of 65 or so in the last 17-18 months.. 23 diff kits to weld, packages to pack and send...

Such a shame that in all of Canada nobody can't read other languages, or can be bothered to search...



http://web.sbf.se/regler/up/2/RY_Tekniska_Regler-2013.pdf

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RY-T 6.5.7.3.1 Säten
FIA-godkända tävlingsstolar fastsatta
enligt TR 5.16
. Dock behöver FIAs åldersgräns inte upp-
fyllas avseende sista användningsdag.

RY-T 6.5.7.3.1 Seats
FIA approved racingseats fixed according to TR5.16
However FIA age limit need not apply regarding last use date

Don't bother with online translators, they can't read argo and arcana of any but the simplest common phrases.


Now, I'm busy

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 01:42AM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham
And Shirley you must wonder why so many otherwise experienced (3-4 times you experience, Jorge's experience, your admitted unqualified "Tech" guy), friendly, helpful people do not take you and the current Calgary area Board members seriously.

You've hinted at that a couple of times, always without actually naming names or citing examples. Sure, I know a few people in BC are pissed off with me and don't like what I say and probably disagree with some of the things I do. That's what happens when you're willing to start discussions that should be had. Some of those 'friendly, helpful' people have said or done things that have pissed me off as well.

Frankly, not only have I not seen this dismissive attitude towards me you seem to believe in, I've seen the exact opposite from some of the most experienced people in the Canadian rally community.

I think most of the PNW guys that have met me at Big White would say I was 'friendly' and 'helpful.' (OK, there are a couple of guys who didn't like me much, but that was because they tried to pass off expired RA/NASA licenses as valid and I wouldn't accept them after confirming they were expired. I even did what I could to help them get licenses sorted out - but, whatever)

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john vanlandingham
WE are more serious than "y'all".
About what we care in believe in..

Not likely, but a 'my friends and I are more serious than you' fight is pretty JuViniLe.
Just because we have different focuses and come to different conclusions doesn't mean one of us 'cares' or 'believes' more than the other. That's the beauty of the rally community - in my mind - is that it is a broad spectrum of people who come together to enjoy the sport. Liek is regularly said, the rally community is like a big family... and you don't always get along with everyone in your family.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Hi Keith,

I appreciate you taking the time to post things like this to the forums. Not only that, but being thick skinned enough to actually discuss and explain some of the reasoning behind things. It might have been better if you said send you feedback to <email address>. It's unfortunate that some need to turn every discussion into a personal attack.

-Martin.

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hoche

I'd be curious to know who spent more on their motor than you did on your car, and whether you think that helped them. I have a pretty good idea of what you have on your car and how much it cost (or would have cost if it hadn't been done for you for free), and I have a really good idea of who's running what in P-Stock. You can PM me or email me if you don't want to say in public.

I don't think he would care as the car has long since been sold and he hasn't done a rally in 9 years. It was Mark Brown. He built his car to run p-stock and had a spare transmission with better gearing that he intended to use for non CRS events. Between headwork and engine internals and paying the top VW shops in the US at the time to do all of the work, he was in it for about $15k (in 2001-2002) just in the engine build and manifold porting and tuning for the CIS-e. Funny enough, all of the help he had from Techtonics and others trying to get it setup, it never ran right until I worked on it for a couple of days leading up to Pike's Peak 2003. I spent hours on the phone with Randy & Jeff at TT and I finally ignored all of their advice and took off everything they had done to the CIS system and manually tuned the stock setup and got great results.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Keith. The RA rule for padding was reactionary in response to a large accident in a vehicle with a special and lacking cage. I think it would make more sense to make old spec homo cages not allowed.

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Grant Hughes

Well for grins and giggles Kieth...

The whole thing with the 2wd class isn't logical. CARS research shows most competitors or many in G2 to be cheap bastards trying to run stock drive trains with a bunch of mods to the rest of the car. That's what I got from it anyway. These would be the same guys bitching about the performance advantage of G5...so CARS guts G5 and then gives the P guys more latitude in cheating.

Many of todays true production cars are making as much or more power as the modded G2 cars of 10 years ago. By allowing lightening, hydro ebrakes , unlimited brakes and the like what is really being accomplished? Seems to show that there is really no need for a production class (as no one is truly
running a production car) and 2WD Open is the true answer. Quit rewarding under achievers. Better yet just forget the whole production thing. No gold star just for waking upm that day.

Padding...seriously? WE (rally scrutineers) see a variety of cages, padding and body types. We see people who put the horizontal windshield bar too far back into the coach. We see a 4 inch piece of padding stuck on a roof bar that will tear off at first brush with a helmet and be gone when the car snap rolls the 2nd time. We see roof bars bent up against the skin and roof bars 3 inches below the roof skin. I personally am aware of two rally deaths in my little corner of the world within 30 miles of my house from head injuries. I personally am tired of arguing with people at tech over that little 4" pieceof helmet padding. So I think the RA is adequate and not over ambitious...but CARS wants to require padding anywhere a body can touch. That would be the full A pillar support and 1/2 lateral to the floor, all the roof bars, main hoop, X between the seats, door bars etc. I'm not sure I get that one.

Red cross stickers..ok, but when the car is wedged on its roof in a ditch, covered with mud or down a bank with every body panel bent and doors stuck closed. Sure why not.

It just seems like someone up there ,or someones, just feel the need to put their 'mark' on the sport. We'll change rules just for the heck of it because we can.

As to the people involved, I can see why Sprongls might be consulted, not sure Antoine should be.

Anyhow, my point originally was to point out that people weren't giving CARS or you grief for posting the message...the grief was with content. That is the whole point of seeking comment isn't it? If you don't like the comments then don't ask for them. It really shows more that the decisions have been made and the process is really a sham. Seems...

And further more..I agree a bazillion percent with Grant on the anorexic homolgated cages.

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MRWmotorsports
Hi Keith,

I appreciate you taking the time to post things like this to the forums. Not only that, but being thick skinned enough to actually discuss and explain some of the reasoning behind things. It might have been better if you said send you feedback to <email address>. It's unfortunate that some need to turn every discussion into a personal attack.

-Martin.

Yeah. It is unforunate.
I see you are taking Morison to task for his lame "If John actually delivers on his long list of other federations .........."*
That was uncalled for, and is typical of the maybe unconsciously arrogance that generates the sarcastic response....

Much like his limp accusations of "juvenile'....

Facing the constant problem of recruitment and retention that ALL North American rally has,
Some people find it a personal attack when Federation "decision makers" waste hundreds of peoples time---and ultimately MONEY fucking incessantly with rules particularly rules in a dead class that was pointless anyway.


*again, can nobody in all these great minds assemble READ anything themselves of other Federations rules??!!! (aside from feckin RA)

It would seem if you rely on outside help you wouldn't taunt them.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Thanks for the kind words Martin.

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john vanlandingham
I see you are taking Morison to task for his lame "If John actually delivers on his long list of other federations .........."*
That was uncalled for, and is typical of the maybe unconsciously arrogance that generates the sarcastic response...

It was completely called for. You've regularly made comments about what the 'other federations' do, which implies you have knowledge of what federations are doing what, but rarely provide actual documentation.

In fact, you earlier offered (to Matt, but that's a side issue) "...some help documenting that other, larger and more experienced Federations are not enforcing the seat expiration date rule?" Personally I'd LOVE to have that information so the question can be asked, with supporting documentation, during the discussion.

You have to agree that the statement itself suggests you know of more than one federation that isn't enforcing seat expiration... if you have the knowledge, it is MUCH easier for you to share it than it is for people to research it from scratch.

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john vanlandingham
Much like his limp accusations of "juvenile'...

Your fallback tactic of ad hominem attack instead of reasoned discussion is nothing if not juvenile. I rarely, if ever, discuss anything outside of the issues and I don't think this one occasion would warrant anyone taking me to task for it.

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john vanlandingham
...particularly rules in a dead class that was pointless anyway.

The thing is, and this is important, the 'new class structure' wasn't about changing the existing classes, it was about a completely new class structure. The committee didn't say 'we should relax the restrictions in production class,' they asked what a good entry level class would look like. In both 2wd and 4wd (you can ignore the 4wd bit Josh, but not everyone wants to) they felt that a class with production drivelines was valuable and important.

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john vanlandingham
*again, can nobody in all these great minds assemble READ anything themselves of other Federations rules??!!! (aside from feckin RA)

The new rule change process in CARS includes researching several different rule sets for comparison. The reality is they will be rule sets that exist in English or French, for obvious reasons. (MSA, CAMS are on the lists for sure)

That being said, I don't sit on the rules committee and I'm not prepared to say that they don't already reference other rule sets in their discussions.

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john vanlandingham
It would seem if you rely on outside help you wouldn't taunt them.

Hell, it got one example out of you didn't it? ;-)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Josh Wimpey
I don't think he would care as the car has long since been sold and he hasn't done a rally in 9 years. It was Mark Brown. He built his car to run p-stock and had a spare transmission with better gearing that he intended to use for non CRS events. Between headwork and engine internals and paying the top VW shops in the US at the time to do all of the work, he was in it for about $15k (in 2001-2002) just in the engine build and manifold porting and tuning for the CIS-e. Funny enough, all of the help he had from Techtonics and others trying to get it setup, it never ran right until I worked on it for a couple of days leading up to Pike's Peak 2003. I spent hours on the phone with Randy & Jeff at TT and I finally ignored all of their advice and took off everything they had done to the CIS system and manually tuned the stock setup and got great results.

Hm, thanks. That explains a small mystery.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche

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Josh Wimpey
I don't think he would care as the car has long since been sold and he hasn't done a rally in 9 years. It was Mark Brown. He built his car to run p-stock and had a spare transmission with better gearing that he intended to use for non CRS events. Between headwork and engine internals and paying the top VW shops in the US at the time to do all of the work, he was in it for about $15k (in 2001-2002) just in the engine build and manifold porting and tuning for the CIS-e. Funny enough, all of the help he had from Techtonics and others trying to get it setup, it never ran right until I worked on it for a couple of days leading up to Pike's Peak 2003. I spent hours on the phone with Randy & Jeff at TT and I finally ignored all of their advice and took off everything they had done to the CIS system and manually tuned the stock setup and got great results.

Hm, thanks. That explains a small mystery.

Who has that car now anyway?

And, what was the mystery?

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

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Morison
Thanks for the kind words Martin.

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john vanlandingham
I see you are taking Morison to task for his lame "If John actually delivers on his long list of other federations .........."*
That was uncalled for, and is typical of the maybe unconsciously arrogance that generates the sarcastic response...

It was completely called for. You've regularly made comments about what the 'other federations' do, which implies you have knowledge of what federations are doing what, but rarely provide actual documentation.

In fact, you earlier offered (to Matt, but that's a side issue) "...some help documenting that other, larger and more experienced Federations are not enforcing the seat expiration date rule?" Personally I'd LOVE to have that information so the question can be asked, with supporting documentation, during the discussion.

You have to agree that the statement itself suggests you know of more than one federation that isn't enforcing seat expiration... if you have the knowledge, it is MUCH easier for you to share it than it is for people to research it from scratch.

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john vanlandingham
Much like his limp accusations of "juvenile'...

Your fallback tactic of ad hominem attack instead of reasoned discussion is nothing if not juvenile. I rarely, if ever, discuss anything outside of the issues and I don't think this one occasion would warrant anyone taking me to task for it.

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john vanlandingham
...particularly rules in a dead class that was pointless anyway.

The thing is, and this is important, the 'new class structure' wasn't about changing the existing classes, it was about a completely new class structure. The committee didn't say 'we should relax the restrictions in production class,' they asked what a good entry level class would look like. In both 2wd and 4wd (you can ignore the 4wd bit Josh, but not everyone wants to) they felt that a class with production drivelines was valuable and important.

Quote
john vanlandingham
*again, can nobody in all these great minds assemble READ anything themselves of other Federations rules??!!! (aside from feckin RA)

The new rule change process in CARS includes researching several different rule sets for comparison. The reality is they will be rule sets that exist in English or French, for obvious reasons. (MSA, CAMS are on the lists for sure)

That being said, I don't sit on the rules committee and I'm not prepared to say that they don't already reference other rule sets in their discussions.

Quote
john vanlandingham
It would seem if you rely on outside help you wouldn't taunt them.

Hell, it got one example out of you didn't it? ;-)

Bitch, my job isn't to prove to an inexperienced bunch of hoo has living in some cultural and mental wasteland what I know and read, I make a reference, YOU go look it up you lazy ass bitch.

Can't read anything but English and some rudimentary French, tough shit, learn. I did, you can. unless you just want to bitch, bitch.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Weird double post

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 08:53PM by Morison.

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john vanlandingham
Bitch, my job isn't to prove to an inexperienced bunch of hoo has living in some cultural and mental wasteland what I know and read, I make a reference, YOU go look it up you lazy ass bitch.

So, here's a perfect example of 'uncalled for.'

No-one suggested it was your 'job' to do anything. The fact is, it isn't ANYONE's 'job' to do any of this. It sure looked like you offered to help by providing the information... I guess I misunderstood.

Once again, this could have been a productive exchange very easily but it's been steered down the gutter for no good reason.

I wasn't asking you to 'prove' what you know, I was trying to take you up on your offer to share what you've read. If you know of federations (plural, but you've given us one) who are not enforcing the seat expiry dates then it is as simple as saying 'I know countries w and x don't enforce it an I'm pretty sure y and z don't either.'

Instead we get name calling and your standard school-yard bully routine.

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Can't read anything but English and some rudimentary French, tough shit, learn. I did, you can. unless you just want to bitch, bitch.

But I'm not the one bitching.

I'm also not the one tasked with researching rules or even deciding if they should be adopted or not. I am, however, someone who can make sure points are raised in the discussion and that your concerns/thoughts are heard.

If you have the information, or can get me close, PLEASE SHARE IT!

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Bitch, my job isn't to prove to an inexperienced bunch of hoo has living in some cultural and mental wasteland what I know and read, I make a reference, YOU go look it up you lazy ass bitch.

So, here's a perfect example of 'uncalled for.'

No-one suggested it was your 'job' to do anything. The fact is, it isn't ANYONE's 'job' to do any of this. It sure looked like you offered to help by providing the information... I guess I misunderstood.

Once again, this could have been a productive exchange very easily but it's been steered down the gutter for no good reason.

I wasn't asking you to 'prove' what you know, I was trying to take you up on your offer to share what you've read. If you know of federations (plural, but you've given us one) who are not enforcing the seat expiry dates then it is as simple as saying 'I know countries w and x don't enforce it an I'm pretty sure y and z don't either.'

Instead we get name calling and your standard school-yard bully routine.

Quote

Can't read anything but English and some rudimentary French, tough shit, learn. I did, you can. unless you just want to bitch, bitch.

But I'm not the one bitching.

I'm also not the one tasked with researching rules or even deciding if they should be adopted or not. I am, however, someone who can make sure points are raised in the discussion and that your concerns/thoughts are heard.

If you have the information, or can get me close, PLEASE SHARE IT!

I will if you ever shut the fuck up with your endless snivelling. What a crybaby. Pooor Keefy getting bullied.
I've tried to teach you about communication, you resist.
You suck at it Keith. You're a photographer, stick to that.

I spend countless hours helping people and have for decades, if people ask questions like human beings.
When they couch their words in a "challenge" , then they will get the reception that you get.
It is in response to the tone you use...
Unconsciously or not...it doesn't matter in the end.

Again, if you use phrases such as "If John actually delivers .............."
You are going to get the response you did.

and if I do waste some of my valuable time, it is with the intention of helping the hundreds of people faced with the idiocy of applying rules which force people to spend money to replace seats which may have been used 6-8 times, rules which somebody not capable of thinking very far thought about, presumably discussed, and passed.
It should take "proof" it should take thinking...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.