This was posted a few days ago to the CARS website... Feedback before the next board call (April 1) would be appreciated.

http://www.carsrally.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=111%3Abulletin-2013-04-rule-change-suggestions-february&catid=1%3Acars-news&Itemid=14&lang=en

BULLETIN Nº 2013-04
Subject: February Rule change suggestions for comments
Issue Date: March 15, 2013

Hello,

Below is a summary of the February Technical rules committee conference call and some current rule proposals being considered.

February 27, 2013 Technical Rules Committee conference call.

The following members attended the conference call.
Ivan Butikofer
Antoine L’Estage
Martin Headland
Frank Sprongl
Jorge Dascollas
John Hall
Darryl Malone
Paul Westwick could not make the call but sent in his comments for discussion.
Gord Olsen could not make the call

1. Hydraulic handbrake in production classes.
Currently the rule simply states the following:
12.8.5 Mechanical Components
Brakes, suspension, differential, clutch, pressure plate and flywheel are free.

So some competitors may interpret this as all components of the brakes are free including the park brake.
Should we allow hydraulic handbrakes in production classes?
A hydraulic handbrake is not a huge expensive upgrade and the performance advantage is minimal. But it may take away from the "production" philosophy of the class. With calipers/rotors being free, the stock handbrake may no longer be feasible.

The committee advised to allow hydraulic hand brakes in production class for two reasons.
1. New cars are increasing equipped with an electronic park brake.

2. By allowing the installation of alternate brake calipers in the rear, there is a possibility that the new calipers may not work with the factory hand brake.


2. Pedal box in production classes.
This is the same as number three. The brake rule is open to interpretation. Should the new production brake are open be open to all brake components or just the caliper/rotor assembly?

The committee advised that an aftermarket pedal box should not be allowed in production class because of three reasons: increased costs, possible performance advantage and goes too far beyond “production”.

The discussion and decisions above lead us to the following proposal for the rule book.

12.8.5 Mechanical Components
Suspension, differential, clutch, pressure plate and flywheel are free.
Brakes are free but must retain the OEM pedal box and equal number of master cylinders as OEM. OEM pedal box being the OEM brake pedal, location, mounting and actuation.

3. Light weighting in production class.
Is light weighting of structural metal ok or this just for bolt on pieces?
We need some clarification on this rule.

The committee proposes the following wording for the rule book.

12.8.4 Body Work
Weight reduction of ORIGINAL bolt on body components is permitted except for the restrictions listed below and provided the vehicle complies with the safety and general regulations.
(a) Exterior pieces bodywork (i.e. all components licked by the airstream) must be visually identical to the original item. Including bumpers. The modifications derived from the fitting of supplementary accessories authorized in 12.8.14 (ie such as those necessitated by the addition of a windshield washer by drilling of a hole in the hood), will be allowed.
(b) No composite materials allowed.
(c) The main unibody must remain as OEM.
(d) All doors and front bumper beam must remain as OEM.
(e) No replacement of stock parts with magnesium or titanium components is allowed unless these came as OEM parts.
(f) All glass must stay as per original equipment or of equivalent OEM specifications.
(g) None of the normal elements of the interior cockpit bodywork (including the dashboard and the elements contained in or part of the dashboard) and none of the accessories normally mounted by the manufacturer on the lowest price model may be removed or replaced.
(h) Carpets, padding, liners, etc. may be removed or modified.
(i) Standard seat/shoulder belts may be removed.
(j) The glove box door may be removed/replaced.
(k) Seam welding the body work is permitted.
(l) The rear seat may be removed.
(m) Side, roof, pillar, door and rear mouldings may be removed or modified. (see NRR 12.3.15)
(n) Interior lighting may be removed or modified.


4. First Aid kit must be visible from outside the vehicle and clearly marked.
Scrutineers have noticed while checking cars that even with the first aid sticker, it is sometimes a bit difficult to find the first aid kit. And the kit should be easily removable.

Current rule.
12.3.5 First aid kit.
A comprehensive first aid kit shall be carried in the passenger compartment. The first aid kit must include:....
In addition, it is recommended to carry a CPR mask, if the competitor is trained in its use.
A first-aid kit label (available through CARS) must be placed on the outside of the vehicle, on a non glass surface, at the nearest point of access to a first-aid kit.

Sometimes fist aid kits are in tool bags or jammed in a corner and not easily found. The committee discussed this item and felt that we could improve on the current rule.
The committee proposes the following wording for the rule book.

“The first aid kit must be easily accessible, clearly identified and the complete kit easily/quickly removable by hand.
It is recommended that the first aid kit be accessible from both sides of the car and from the seated position”

5. Tow rope must be contained within the vehicle.
There have been instances with a competitor attaching the tow rope to the outside of the vehicle and then running the rest inside the trunk. And in a few of the cases the rope has came loose of flung around outside the vehicle. This is a danger to spectators and volunteers.

Current rule:
12.3.16 Tow Rope.
All vehicles must carry a tow rope or winch with cable.

The committee proposes that the following wording should be added to the rule book.

“All parts of the tow rope must be within the competition vehicle at all times while the tow rope is not is use”.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following rules were discussed but require some further research.

A. Allow DOT helmets in Rally Cross events.
We received a question as to why DOT marked helmets are not allowed in rally cross events.

The committee felt that a DOT helmet may be adequate for a rally cross event on the conditions that the helmet is ¾ or full face, no biker skull caps. And if the vehicle is equipped with a roll cage, that a SA helmet must be used.
There is a question if a DOT helmet would be allowed by our insurance provider.
Darryl will look into this and report back to the committee.


B. Model range.
Is a 1976 Lancer the same as a 2012 Lancer?
Can a competitor put a complete EVOX drive train in a 1976 Lancer and still be production?
This is a loop hole pointed out by someone on the rules committee. No competitor has requested this. Do we need some sort of clarification on this?

The discussion was in the direction that updating and backdating should only be allowed within the body variant.
Jorge and Darryl will work on this and report back to the committee.

C. Adopt a version of the new RA roll bar padding rule
RA Bulletin 2013-02
Effective 1/1/2013, the following rule changes are made.
1. Replace Article 6.4.A.26 with the following:
26. Roll cage padding: Any portion of the roll cage which could come into contact with the driver or co-driver's helmet during competition, including all bars in the plane of the roof and forward of the main hoop, shall be covered with energy absorbing material compliant with either the SFI 45.1 specification or FIA Standard 8857-2001 Type A.
Rationale: Recent history has shown that any bar in this area of the roll cage is capable of being deformed enough to make contact with a competitor's helmet.

Current CARS rule
12.3.2.6 Protective Padding:
Where the occupants' bodies could come into contact with the safety cage, flame retardant padding must be provided for protection.
Where the occupants' crash helmets could come into contact with the safety cage, the padding must comply with FIA standard 8857 2001, type A (see technical list n 23 "Roll Cage Padding Homologated by the FIA" or SFI 45.1.

We felt that the RA rule may be overly excessive but also felt that some clarification for roll bar padding may be necessary. Frank and Darryl will look into this a bit further and report back to the committee.

D. Request to change wording for seat expiry date.

Current rule.
12.3.12 Seats and seat mountings.
12.3.12.1 Seats:
(a) The use of hinged-back and OEM seats is prohibited.
(b) All the occupants' seats must be homologated by the FIA standards 8855-1999 or 8862-2009, and not modified.
(c) Effective January 1, 2014, for seats in compliance with FIA standard 8855-1999, the limit for use is 5 years from the date of manufacture indicated on the mandatory label. An extension of 2 further years may be authorised by the manufacturer and must be indicated by an additional label. For seats in compliance with FIA standard 8862-2009, the limit for use is 10 years from the year of manufacture.

Request to add the following line:
d) The use of seats whose expiry date is exceeded is permitted if the seat is in good condition and has no structural defects

The rules committee discussed the possibility of having volunteer scrutineers checking seats for structural defects. We decided that most people are not trained for this kind of inspection.
Seats are an important safety item similar to helmets or belts that must also be replaced after some years of service.
We also discussed the importance of replacing seats, seat belts and HANS tethers after a crash. These items are highly stressed during a crash and we recommend replacement after a serious crash.
The CARS board felt that we should investigate further why FIA has set an expiry of five years.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have any comments or concerns with the above proposals please reply to your Competitor representative, Chris Martin or Organizer representative, Ross Wood.
The regional directors and others from the extended board are now seeking feedback before a vote on the rule changes (items 1-5) is held at the April 1st board meeting.
Please respond no later than March 29, 2013.

Best Regards,
Darryl Malone
CARS Technical Director
technical@carsrally.ca

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2013 10:34PM by Morison.

Quote
Morison


“The first aid kit must be easily accessible, clearly identified and the complete kit easily/quickly removable by hand.
It is recommended that the first aid kit be accessible from both sides of the car and from the seated position”


C. Adopt a version of the new RA roll bar padding rule
RA Bulletin 2013-02
Effective 1/1/2013, the following rule changes are made.
1. Replace Article 6.4.A.26 with the following:
26. Roll cage padding: Any portion of the roll cage which could come into contact with the driver or co-driver's helmet during competition, including all bars in the plane of the roof and forward of the main hoop, shall be covered with energy absorbing material compliant with either the SFI 45.1 specification or FIA Standard 8857-2001 Type A.
Rationale: Recent history has shown that any bar in this area of the roll cage is capable of being deformed enough to make contact with a competitor's helmet.



We felt that the RA rule may be overly excessive but also felt that some clarification for roll bar padding may be necessary. Frank and Darryl will look into this a bit further and report back to the committee.

D. Request to change wording for seat expiry date.

Current rule.
12.3.12 Seats and seat mountings.
12.3.12.1 Seats:
(a) The use of hinged-back and OEM seats is prohibited.
(b) All the occupants' seats must be homologated by the FIA standards 8855-1999 or 8862-2009, and not modified.
(c) Effective January 1, 2014, for seats in compliance with FIA standard 8855-1999, the limit for use is 5 years from the date of manufacture indicated on the mandatory label. An extension of 2 further years may be authorised by the manufacturer and must be indicated by an additional label. For seats in compliance with FIA standard 8862-2009, the limit for use is 10 years from the year of manufacture.

Request to add the following line:
d) The use of seats whose expiry date is exceeded is permitted if the seat is in good condition and has no structural defects

The rules committee discussed the possibility of having volunteer scrutineers checking seats for structural defects. We decided that most people are not trained for this kind of inspection.
Seats are an important safety item similar to helmets or belts that must also be replaced after some years of service.
We also discussed the importance of replacing seats, seat belts and HANS tethers after a crash. These items are highly stressed during a crash and we recommend replacement after a serious crash.
The CARS board felt that we should investigate further why FIA has set an expiry of five years.

Thanks Keith.

Okay so first...

I have a first aid kit in my daily driver... it's in the back seat, I can't reach it from the front seats. If I can't un-do my belts, get out of the car, get the first aid kit, and get back in... I need more friggin help then what is in that box.

Really that's a load of whatever. The only place I can reach the first aid kit in my seat in the rally car would be in the center of the steering wheel. After I'm out of the harness, who knows whether I can crawl through the x in the main hoop, the rear stays, and through to the back... but it doesn't matter. If there's that much trauma in the car, I, or Jeff, is not going to be able to admin first aid let alone function.

Yes, it should not be under the spare, but reasonable is more better.


I'm not an in-jur-neer... ( I do love that...) but adding padding to ALL the forward the bars just seems silly. Watch the Pikes Peak horror... if it's getting that bad, it's that bad. A bit of padding on the A pillar ain't gonna make a lick of difference when the A-piller has just passed my head... (that's how I read that rule...)


Request d) blab blab use common sense blab blab

YES! This makes friggin sense... I have seats that have 7 events on them, and will be due for replacement soon. COME ON! (oh yeah and 7 events on helmets that are junk now too...)

How about this. Look in the log book, "Dude you rolled your car at the last event... did you get new seats? No, well then no runny the rally for youee".

My 5 cents.

Quote
Mad Matt F

Quote
Morison


“The first aid kit must be easily accessible, clearly identified and the complete kit easily/quickly removable by hand.
It is recommended that the first aid kit be accessible from both sides of the car and from the seated position”


C. Adopt a version of the new RA roll bar padding rule
RA Bulletin 2013-02
Effective 1/1/2013, the following rule changes are made.
1. Replace Article 6.4.A.26 with the following:
26. Roll cage padding: Any portion of the roll cage which could come into contact with the driver or co-driver's helmet during competition, including all bars in the plane of the roof and forward of the main hoop, shall be covered with energy absorbing material compliant with either the SFI 45.1 specification or FIA Standard 8857-2001 Type A.
Rationale: Recent history has shown that any bar in this area of the roll cage is capable of being deformed enough to make contact with a competitor's helmet.



We felt that the RA rule may be overly excessive but also felt that some clarification for roll bar padding may be necessary. Frank and Darryl will look into this a bit further and report back to the committee.

D. Request to change wording for seat expiry date.

Current rule.
12.3.12 Seats and seat mountings.
12.3.12.1 Seats:
(a) The use of hinged-back and OEM seats is prohibited.
(b) All the occupants' seats must be homologated by the FIA standards 8855-1999 or 8862-2009, and not modified.
(c) Effective January 1, 2014, for seats in compliance with FIA standard 8855-1999, the limit for use is 5 years from the date of manufacture indicated on the mandatory label. An extension of 2 further years may be authorised by the manufacturer and must be indicated by an additional label. For seats in compliance with FIA standard 8862-2009, the limit for use is 10 years from the year of manufacture.

Request to add the following line:
d) The use of seats whose expiry date is exceeded is permitted if the seat is in good condition and has no structural defects

The rules committee discussed the possibility of having volunteer scrutineers checking seats for structural defects. We decided that most people are not trained for this kind of inspection.
Seats are an important safety item similar to helmets or belts that must also be replaced after some years of service.
We also discussed the importance of replacing seats, seat belts and HANS tethers after a crash. These items are highly stressed during a crash and we recommend replacement after a serious crash.
The CARS board felt that we should investigate further why FIA has set an expiry of five years.

Thanks Keith.

Okay so first...

I have a first aid kit in my daily driver... it's in the back seat, I can't reach it from the front seats. If I can't un-do my belts, get out of the car, get the first aid kit, and get back in... I need more friggin help then what is in that box.

Really that's a load of whatever. The only place I can reach the first aid kit in my seat in the rally car would be in the center of the steering wheel. After I'm out of the harness, who knows whether I can crawl through the x in the main hoop, the rear stays, and through to the back... but it doesn't matter. If there's that much trauma in the car, I, or Jeff, is not going to be able to admin first aid let alone function.

Yes, it should not be under the spare, but reasonable is more better.


I'm not an in-jur-neer... ( I do love that...) but adding padding to ALL the forward the bars just seems silly. Watch the Pikes Peak horror... if it's getting that bad, it's that bad. A bit of padding on the A pillar ain't gonna make a lick of difference when the A-piller has just passed my head... (that's how I read that rule...)


Request d) blab blab use common sense blab blab

YES! This makes friggin sense... I have seats that have 7 events on them, and will be due for replacement soon. COME ON! (oh yeah and 7 events on helmets that are junk now too...)

How about this. Look in the log book, "Dude you rolled your car at the last event... did you get new seats? No, well then no runny the rally for youee".

My 5 cents.

Good god you fall for it every time. "We're looking for input....."

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John,

I've landed on my head too many times to know when I'm seriously being asked, or just being catered too. In defence of the system - perhaps just maybe - I'm being asked...

All I can do is kick the ball as far as I can, when I can, when my foot reaches the ball...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 12:24AM by Mad Matt F.

Quote
Mad Matt F
John,

I've landed on my head too many times to know when I'm seriously being asked, or just being catered too. In defence of the system - perhaps just maybe - I'm being asked...

All I can do is kick the ball as far as I can, when I can, when my foot reaches the ball...

Do you want some help documenting that other, larger and more experienced Federations are not enforcing the seat expiration date rule?

Also ask them what constitutes "a crash".?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Wait...

I'm just gonna add this.

"The rules committee discussed the possibility of having volunteer scrutineers checking seats for structural defects. We decided that most people are not trained for this kind of inspection. "

Yet they can look at my seat mounts, my cage, my harness mounting, my anti-bar-through-head padding, and my fire extiguisers; yet not see that the seat is deformed or busted up?

Maybe seats stucturally wear, but I'll bet the car shell wears too...

I'm going buy a PS3 or something...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 12:38AM by Mad Matt F.

Wait a few months - the PS4 is coming out.....

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

WHAAAATTT

you mean my PS1 is THAT outdated?

"NASCAR" will never be the same.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Do you want some help documenting that other, larger and more experienced Federations are not enforcing the seat expiration date rule.?

YES!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 01:03AM by Morison.

Quote
Mad Matt F
Yet they can look at my seat mounts, my cage, my harness mounting, my anti-bar-through-head padding, and my fire extiguisers; yet not see that the seat is deformed or busted...

Actually, yes.
Composites can be seriously compromised but look just fine to the naked eye. Particularly when Kevlar is introduced, the structure can start to delaminate and become much weaker very quickly. Storing in variable temps (freeze/thaw cycles) can take a real toll on composites that weren't designed for temp swings.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Keith,

great, how does that affect my cheap assed tube seats? And the seats of those of us who this rule would affect (ie the cheap assed crew?)

Hmmm, guess I'l discard my kevlar canoe then too... it's seen 15 years of freeze-thaw.

Just saying...

Just sharing my thoughts...

Quote
Mad Matt
I have a first aid kit in my daily driver... it's in the back seat, I can't reach it from the front seats. If I can't un-do my belts, get out of the car, get the first aid kit, and get back in... I need more friggin help then what is in that box.

I think the point here is to make it easier for the people helping you to find your first aid kit by ensuring it is visible and easily identified. Not sure where the 'easily reachable' part comes from and I think it is probably counter productive. Better might be to mandate a specific location... But that gets a bit tough.

Quote

A bit of padding on the A pillar ain't gonna make a lick of difference when the A-piller has just passed my head... (that's how I read that rule...)

Actually, the padding changes a point load into a much more dispersed load (in contact area and duration) that can prevent the failure of the helmet shell. We had one helmet this year fail (cracked completely through) in an off.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Mad Matt F
Keith,

great, how does that affect my cheap assed tube seats? And the seats of those of us who this rule would affect (ie the cheap assed crew?)

Good question... I don't often think of tube seats because I've never sat in one that was comfortable enough to spend a day in.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Keith,

I'm not arguing the "more better location" for the first aid kit... Just the "within reach" is too much.

The edited part...

"within reach" suggests within reach of both driver and co-driver. That means in the middle... FAR from any broken glass a good hearted spectator, who has been now told "NOT TO TOUCH THE CARS" is going to be able to reach through... So yeah, EXCLUDE that part.

Oh and as for the "NOT TO TOUCH THE CARS", that comes straigh from the mouths of volunteers who were working PN with me... when we were talking about pushing cars out of snow banks. Too bad...

I'm also not arguing the the aspects of point load on a helmet. However, we already have added a bar to the A piller (the cage), and for new builds,an upright too.. is the rule change really suggesting I add padding to these bars, further ubstructing my view of the photog sitting in the ditch I'm about to hit? Really, like really... if this is suggesting padding the A piller bars to protect my helmet when the cage is that deformed... I'm in a harness, in a HANs, in a FIA seat...

It's not a case of 1000 cuts, it's a case of reasonable expectations, slow the F-down, or don't play.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2013 01:39AM by Mad Matt F.