Dillon VanWay running a BRC event...

Like it or not Chris Duplessis is THE premier 2wd driver in the US.

Dillon VanWay has backing, and more power to him. If I had the funding I might be willing to burn it the same way......or maybe I would be laying on a beach in the sun somewhere, thumbing my nose. I think the funding could be spent in much more productive ways, but he is out there achieving what he wants, so good for him.

All I know is the more recce is involved in rally, the less I am interested in putting the money and effort into rallying. It may get us closer to having a competetive North American in the WRC, but I am not willing to sacrifice more than I already have for an awesome hobby.

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-Tom
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If his goal was to run the R2 overseas, why has he been monkeying around with a turbo version over here? I wish him luck - cool to see folks we can run with here playing with folks overseas, but if DVW's turbo couldn't keep up with CD's R2...

Dave

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john vanlandingham

Yet neither are as committed and hard on the gas--or as fast and skilled as guys in the odd land where they're always on Route Books only.

I have a longer post written up (at home) but actually had to get to work this morning. But just to chime in, once again, this is YOUR opinion.

Don't fall into the error that so many inexperienced boys who have extremely limited experience too often do and believe that just because we all have a right to have an opinion that all opinions are equal.

If you have watched enough Youtube videos of so many F-cup drivers and compared the attack they do on stages winter or summer and compare that with anybody in North America, you ought to be able to see the difference..
If you followed links to SS times I have posted showing 3-4 Swedish GruppH--close enough to F-cup or our Gp2---at the National event run after the WRC cars had rutted and polished the stages at Swedish WRC and seen a couple of VW and Volvo guys beating Blocks times consistantly, I think an honest person would conclude that those guys are charging harder..

Or, why aren't the big budget cars here getting beat by whoever you think is charging hard?

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There is no fact to the statement you have made besides your anecdotal evidence.

This is neither a court of law or 8th Grade Debate class. You have only tried, poorly, to counter opinion, and have offered no facts or opinion yourself..

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While you may believe it to be true, you have no evidence (empirical or otherwise) to back up the claim that DVW, CD, or any other competitor in America is not doing this in COMPARISON to those across the pond.

You mean aside from links to SS times for 12 years?

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You don't even have anecdotal evidence of YOURSELF doing it, so now we are into hearsay.

Doing "it"?

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You can hypothesize all you want, but claiming it to be fact is absurd (not that I necessarily disagree with you on your points John).

I am posing questions and suggesting points to consider..you seem to believe that that is claiming to be positing a fact.
But, I think again, you can look at the only "evidence' we have to do comparisons and use your own eyes...but evidently you haven't done that or just want to argue..

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I think Josh and Keith summarized my point of view much more succinctly than I could.

Well I do weigh Joshs' opinion but I do think his view is narrower.
keith, like you I rarely have a solid idea of what his point is... The words look like ordinary English words but the references to and value or meaning of the words I don't understand...it's a cultural thing...

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As for achievments and drive, I am quite happy with my accomplishments and what I have done.

Good for you.

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No regrets on my part And at least those accomplishments were within rally,

But the certainty and criticism of others who have tried to do more, that is what I don't understand...basically who are you? What have YOU done to be in position to criticize anybody? Modesty obviously isn't in your vocabulary.

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and not in some other motorsport unrelated to the discussion at hand.

Oh silly child, here's where you seem like a cocky dick.... You are the one who used the phrase "feeling high and might because something you did 20 years ago".

I corrected you and said I don't feel "high and mighty" becuase of anything I've done in a leisure time hobby--which is all rally in North America is ---and indeed for 99.9% of people everywhere...
I too am happy at the effort and results and additional work I have done in connection to rally.....always happy to "do the most-est with the least-est"
Catching the newly crowed PGT National Champion--the PGT driver and car that beat every other PGT car---catching them in less than 5 miles in a worn out old Saab--cast iron pushrod motor...I'm happy..

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Edit-
And just to be clear, I'm rooting for DVW. Same as when CD went across.

Odd. It seemed like you were saying they're not fast enough...

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They are "living the dream" as Leo would say.

Why isn't he, with his connections stepping up to the line?

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I have to do about 40 more rallies in the driver's seat before I have near the experience they have, and my choices in life have put me on a different path (as I am a different person with different wants) that probably precludes me from ever competing as they have.

Doesn't seem to affect your need to criticize....

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"I feel some pride in having set a goal at 15: To race moto-cross for a living, and to see the world doing it" and I did it.
And again, that's something you'll never do. "

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Your right, I'll never do that as I never had an interest in moto-cross from a racing standpoint. Refer back to my initial comment on no regrets for the way I've approached racing

There is the point crystal clear now?

What I'm suggesting is that any racer has to have some self confidence, and you have that in buckets. (although well founded self confidence is one thing, blind reflexive self delusion is another)

But a human being has to know their limits, especially in criticizing others who dare to do things one doesn't dare.

It could just be a different mode of speech, seems most 20 somethings are convinced they are right and they feel compelled to assert themselves with gainsaying, and nay-saying...its a shame because they waste so many opportunities to ponder alternatives they have yet to encounter.

Again, remember this is not a court of law, nor is it JrHigh debate club, it is conversation.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Tom B
All I know is the more recce is involved in rally, the less I am interested in putting the money and effort into rallying. It may get us closer to having a competetive North American in the WRC, but I am not willing to sacrifice more than I already have for an awesome hobby.

I don't really have an issue running recce, but I'd be down for no recce allowed for regional teams. Then if you want to dual enter, you can't run recce either. Just makes things easier as I have one less day off work, hotel, and 9/10 my crew is never able to make it that day anyway so I'm still scambling if it means more competitors. I think recce does help though. Mainly for the crests, or deleting out so much crap JEMBA puts in there that I don't like.

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john vanlandingham

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Josh Wimpey
John, I offer a dissenting opinion that I have offered here before regarding this issue. I think you are wrong to assume where the source of the speed difference comes from.

1) If anyone has the drive, curiosity, and determination (And the seat time) in the US, it was Chris D. Probably more seat time than all but a few much older guys in North America.

2) Riddle me this--- When the Europeans come here to play as they sometimes have over the past couple of decades we don't see nearly the kinds of gaps (much less dominance) that we see when we send our guys overseas instead. That tells us something about where a large part of the gaps come from --- either better notes experience or simply pure memorization of the event roads by the locals.

Josh, you know i respect your thoughts. But I am completely confused as to what you are first positing and asking... It's morning and my mind is on getting brekkie into the girls, getting them to school so make a stab at simplifying what you're contending..

Well, I was also quite sleep deprived during my 27 hour transit back from Nigeria but my point was twofold. !) Chris has more experience and is faster than just about anybody in North America so it is difficult to deride his experience with a walk before running critique. 2) When the Europeans come here and run our events with Jemba they do NOT simply walk away from the top guys the same way that the top guys from the US that have gone overseas get walked in international events. This second point suggests that a significant part of the speed differential is not from the driving skill delta....

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john vanlandingham
And are you clear what I'm saying.

First things first
Walk before run

Watching guys in the Subies average 47mph on stages the "heroes blast down averaging 77mph ---mainly because it's so straight---and BOTH saying they could ONLY do it thanks to their Notes.........and neither looks as aggressive as scores and scores, hundreds perhaps, of GroupF guys.

That's my dilemma.. Here even with notes and turbo and 4wd guys, many couldn't even beat simple skill in simple old cars..and they whine "(sniffle) WE NEED NOTES!!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!"
Why?

I wasn't trying to answer the question about the parade of slow subarus putting down the stages in the US (although I am glad they show up and have fun anyway). I was simply looking at very specific examples CD going overseas and top euros coming here.

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john vanlandingham
Or as was posited in this thread "the reason Dillion isn't (higher up, faster whatever) is because less experience with notes."
Oh. Really?

Maybe, he just doesn't have the last bit of drive? maybe he can't not when he knows it really doesn't mean anything in a real sense?
Maybe...

Yet neither are as committed and hard on the gas--or as fast and skilled as guys in the odd landf where they're always on Route Books only.

DVW is a different story completely from Chris D and I don't have a complete answer to that question --- however, from talking to DVW at events, he is clearly happier and more confident and comfortable racing on race tracks rather than rally stages and has admitted as much.

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____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

It is insane that there are any rule in prep, classes, procedures or anything different between "Regional" or "National". The "National" Championship is and always has been a farce, it is just people who can afford to tow more, and the only difference is that some guys check a box next to "National" on the entry form and other guys check a different box, and some guys pay a shit ton more money and some guys pay just a whole pile of dough..

One rule set, one big class for 4wd, one for 2wd..

Everything else is artificial and does nothing but create confusion and extra work.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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BillyElliot

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Tom B
All I know is the more recce is involved in rally, the less I am interested in putting the money and effort into rallying. It may get us closer to having a competetive North American in the WRC, but I am not willing to sacrifice more than I already have for an awesome hobby.

I don't really have an issue running recce, but I'd be down for no recce allowed for regional teams. Then if you want to dual enter, you can't run recce either. Just makes things easier as I have one less day off work, hotel, and 9/10 my crew is never able to make it that day anyway so I'm still scambling if it means more competitors. I think recce does help though. Mainly for the crests, or deleting out so much crap JEMBA puts in there that I don't like.

That's dumb. Allow note sharing.

That way, if a team can't make recce for whatever reason, a team they're friends with and trust to write GOOD notes could let them use their notes, or sell them a copy of their notes or something.

What are good notes? Notes as good, or better, than they themselves have written.

"Oh, but they crashed because they wrote their own notes wrong last year at this event" - Oh yeah? Well I hope they learned their mistake, noted the turn/crest/jump/dont cut/whatever and improved their note writing skill... You learn by mistakes.

Its like mountain biking, if you're not crashing now and then, you're not trying hard enough. Then again, I haven't broken my collar bone yet, so I'm probably going to slow as well

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

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Dazed_Driver
Its like mountain biking, if you're not crashing now and then, you're not trying hard enough. Then again, I haven't broken my collar bone yet, so I'm probably going to slow as well

Does that make me a quadriplegic in rally car terms??

John would probably argue lobotomized, but then I'd say he suffers from... I can't even say, so many things would be sufficient. Oldness. That's what I'll go with.

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BillyElliot
If you want a benchmark on notes vs no notes and using someone who's probably the best at reading the road (Doug Shepherd) look at Rally Tennessee 2010.

http://rallyracingnews.com/nasa/tennessee10-results.html

First stage, Doug didn't plug in his helmet to the intercom so he was running blind. So that's a guy going blind against a bunch of guys who had slight advantage to have run the event before, but were all on notes.

Basically, myself and Moen beat him by 4 seconds and the Wimpeys by 16. Stage length is 5.73 miles, so it's around 2.8 seconds a mile to be on notes or not.

Even we (Smith) beat him by a second and then he crushes us every stage after that. I agree with you.

I think we're getting too single minded on the notes issue. I think the fact that the roads are much wider and straighter and less technical here in the US is one of the issues. Also another problem is the fact that car prep is mostly garage specials so even with Chris D having all the seat time, spending all those years in a sub par car did not help him any bit. You develop bad driving habits that we used correct handling deficiencies. And also never to push 10 tenths because the car wont last, vs if you have a good car you could strive for those 10 tenths all the time therefore growing a lot more. Its said that practice makes perfect but practice shit and you get perfect shit. Also the rally specific education and tribal knowledge is much higher in Europe, and its something you cant get here no matter how many years of driving or curiosity you have. I'm sure CD could say that he learned more in 3 events in the WRC than he had in the previous 3 or 4 years of our nachunal chumpship.

Why else would the likes of Craig Breen win the WRC Academy with only 3 years of prior rally experience.

For what it´s worth, i drove with Jemba notes first time in Sandblast this year, yes, we had few other issues too, Wilson was codriving for me for the first time, and my english is far away from good.. but still, i´d suggest for everybody to even try to make your own notes for once... Few events we´we done here with Tero, even with one pass recce, we´we written our own notes, (Teros english is even worst than mine, good excuse to make notes of our own), and we do have long experience in making notes, still all said and done, even without checking them, i trust our own million times before someone elses... And then you can always blame yourself if something goes wrong.. =)
So go ahead, take a road close to you and make notes, make "recce" in just normal roads, and practice it.. It doesn´t have to be in a rally to learn it, drive the same road for 20 times and get it right, then do the next one. When you feel that you´we got it, try it in the next event.. I promise you (no guarantees..), you´ll notice the difference... even with one pass recce..

fwiw, after a hiccup on the first stage (my fault), Jari started pedaling the car pretty good. He was basically driving blind. In my observation he was much more willing to commit to his turns than US drivers. I think you get fast in Finland because you have a lot of rallies and a lot of competition from guys that aren't worried about stuffing their cars, so you learn how to read the roads and commit. That said, each country's roads have certain characteristics and that can help the locals vis-a-vis the international talent.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2013 07:22PM by wvonkessler.

Hei Jari,

interesting comment on recce. I'm curious about where your rece experience comes from. I've been led to believe that rally in Finland is a blind, route book only, style of rally. Is that not the case.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

90% of the rallies are blind, there´s few events every now and then which allow recce, and all Finnish Championship events are with recce.
Also we´we been competing on various European events since 1986, and those are always with recce. In Finland, to be able to the rallies which allow recce, you must have certain amount of experience and at least A-junior license, and attend in "schooling" for notes. So when you´re a beginner, B-junior, no notes/recce, no 4WD or turbo. Depending on your succsess in class, you get points and when 10 points is achieved, you can upgrade to A-junior. 10 points more you get to be "yleinen" (general?) which allows you to also upgrade your license to International FIA license..