What would it take??

To build up a 'club' driven rally system in the USA?

By this I mean:
- Competitors required to belong to local clubs
- local clubs belonging to a national body, grouped by reasonable geographic regions, and accountable to their members
- a national sanctioning body accountable to the clubs and, through the clubs, the ... Um ... Stakeholders

Or, is it even desireible or possible

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

it would take a Revolution. The victory of the Prole-le-ralliat over the hangers on to the old regime, the conservative, evangelical, typical reactionary and politically completely ignorant types which say "Club? CLUB! You gonna FORCE ME to join a CLUB! Why that's Comma-nism! You a gawd dam comma-nist? That's what You are a Nazi Comma-nist, I bet you love that black ****** president so you're a muslim too!"

Commercial mentality, assisted by many people's sole source of "news" the AM "Talk" radio have corroded totally the concept of communal, or group anything here, and indeed since the border can't stop radio waves, infected some up in Canada, and it has mainly filtered thru the whole society.
That works best for huge commercial interests if everybody, the whole society is all atomized....and powerless...and resigned..

It would take a complete social revolution..

It seems from what I've seen down here for car type clubs the only reason to form and join them is to have a structure whereby some can exercise pointless control
best and perfectly illustrated in the epic cinema "Life of Brian" when at the local Coliseum, Brain askes a group if they were , aw fuckit here it is:
<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="

?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Us guys in the Central RA have discussed this since we have so many events. You have in a way a Michigan/Ohio, MN/Wisconson, SW/MO groups with Chicago shared by both. I was going to try and get a Michigan championship going that would be S*D, Magnum Opus, LSPR but that seems to have been overshadowed by the Bragging Rights event that's going on.

There are still car clubs active , many in the NW. They seem to gravitate to the TSD or hill climb events though.

Back in the day we had 5 or 6 rally cars in here locally. No official club but everyone kind of hung out at my shop and helped each other. There isn't a rally car in th area now. Lots of lowered butt bumpers and the polar opposite with the mudders.

I would love to go up and hang around with the JVL, Robert, Dave Clark and the rest of the northern boys but its a long drive and not even a consideration after work.

Mileage seperating people, busy schedules, diffrent interests and cars, lack of funding for some? Back when there was just SCCA (mostly) we had the newsletter, big banquet, lots of cross interest and participation. Now I don't even know if they still have any organized AutoX events. NASA is moving into Oregon and Washington. This may be a good thing and if RA would just shrivel up and die it might be even better.







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maybe dont call it a club... "club" to me that conjures up images of the chess club, the science club, the mathaletes...MAYBE call it a team... every body want to be on the team...right?


ok in all seriousness....... this is a great idea... i was trying to make this point in john F cup post... BIG RALLY wont work in the US of A cuz its just far to big of a region to mannage... and there are already "local groups" that set up the current "national" events.. they set them up, find the roads, get voulenteers.. and all rally america does is roll in, charge 3-5 times the regular "local entry fee" to "insure" the event? and bring what...8-10 national teams with? all this does is make it too expensive for the locals to run, and makes people that are uninformed think you need a $200,000 toter home, and a 40K+ car, and $2500 a month spare cash to to go rallying... thus keeping them away...


RALLY FOGG as john calls it... needs to do more local coverage, or some one does.... hell im from MN, lived 20 mins away from "RA's" old location, and never knew they existed till i was 23.....

american rally needs to be a church... or at least a NON-Profit... for one person to try and make a national company off local volunteers is stupid.. any $$ the rally collects should go back into marketing.... not into one persons pocket....

Pastor JVL? anyone who has been on the phone with him KNOWS he can talk.... call that a sermon, put him in a robe, and we have the Church of Rally Anarchists.... someone file the paperwork..

---

I be sorry as a muthafucka I did, still sorry I did n' hustled ta peep what tha fuck I holla'd a lil' bit better, or at least try to.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2013 11:08AM by mke723.

just IMO and all that...

I think the biggest driver for it could be competitors standing up and saying
"I want to rally, but...


and actually doing something about it - other than quitting.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Quote
BillyElliot
Us guys in the Central RA have discussed this since we have so many events.

I was kind of hoping that double secret facebook group was going to evolve in to an upper midwest rally club, but instead it has just sort of fizzled. The most important thing that I see, that a club could do, would be to act as the voice of the competitors to the event organizers and sanctioning bodies. Something with more weight to it than message forum posts and lone individuals contacting organizers or sanctioning bodies.

Rally needs less of "the voice of the competitors".

It needs more of "the hands of the competitors".

Rally doesn't need more polls or opinions, it needs more people selflessly working to make things happen.

The voice of the competitors will say: "We want-
-more rallies closer to us!
-lower entry fees!
-longer stages!
-more night stages!
-supps posted earlier!
-cheaper notes!
-more superspecial stages in front of big crowds!
-a univeral license!
-a universal time card!
-a universal rule book!
-uniform classes!
-more publicity!
-more promotional stuff provided to help us get sponsors!
-tv coverage!
-better scoring!
-real sponsors!
-more transparency!
-fewer delays!"

And maybe a few other things too, none of which will be a surprise to people that have been around a while. Anyway, just start from the premise that organizers and sanctioning bodies already know all the things on this list... that unfortunately does nothing toward creating a solution for any of them. Some are possible, some aren't, there's a lot of _additional_ work that is required for them.

To the original post, it seems that the club system proposed nearly mirrors the system in Canada. Let's just skip all the in between stuff, Keith, if America was organized like Canada, what problems do you think that would solve?

I'll answer only the final question of the OP, no, I don't think it's possible, given the anti-trust laws in the US. It could be put into place, might survive briefly, but would shortly have dissenters breaking away.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green
The voice of the competitors will say: "We want-
-more rallies closer to us! (not really an option, we don't have enough competitors and would spread too thin)
-lower entry fees! (not really our choice, organizers find sanctions/insurance, but the more people that show up could help lower the cost. By coming as a body saying "we can bring X ammount of drivers, it can help for event planning to potential bring cost savings to other competitors)
-longer stages! (I don't think that's what's stopping people from showing up to events, $/mile of roads is the issue)
-more night stages! (If an event can't run at night, I don't care. Look at STPR, I still showed up to it)
-supps posted earlier! (Season schedules posted early, supps/costs/mini-championships, we all need to plan early.)
-cheaper notes! (That's a JEMBA problem, could run organizer provided notes and allow 2 pass for those who want to make their own notes)
-more superspecial stages in front of big crowds! (that's an event "need", that sells tickets and helps lower event costs. Again, I can put up with 2 measly superspecials if it means lower event cost to me)
-a univeral license! (That's between RA/NASA/CARS, RA already allows discounts to CARS comeptitors. The only one left is RA/NASA need to give each other a hug)
-a universal time card! (Again, not something stopping people from coming to events)
-a universal rule book! (Not stopping people from showing up to events)
-uniform classes! (2WD, 4WD would make things a hell of a lot easier)
-more publicity! (Increased cost with some sort of event video made by organizers that we can show to our friends and go "hey this is what I did" wouldn't be that bad)
-more promotional stuff provided to help us get sponsors! (I don't think it's unreasonable, but not something that stops people from coming to events)
-tv coverage! (not something that stops people from coming to events)
-better scoring! (Nobody likes it when everybody needs to put in inquiries because of untrained volunteers)
-real sponsors! (If it comes along with contingencies, sure)
-more transparency! (What like Crystal Clear Pepsi?)
-fewer delays!" (Something an event is expected to do)

And maybe a few other things too, none of which will be a surprise to people that have been around a while. Anyway, just start from the premise that organizers and sanctioning bodies already know all the things on this list... that unfortunately does nothing toward creating a solution for any of them. Some are possible, some aren't, there's a lot of _additional_ work that is required for them.

My comments in bold.

But you need to look at that list from an organizer and see why people aren't showing up to events. I don't think day/night balance is stopping someone from showing up. But if you put a quality run event, zero to very minimal (i.e. less than 15 minutes) of delays, quality roads, etc you'll get people coming back year after year. It's pretty much a reason why Sno*Drift keeps winning rally of the year...

Quote

To the original post, it seems that the club system proposed nearly mirrors the system in Canada. Let's just skip all the in between stuff, Keith, if America was organized like Canada, what problems do you think that would solve?

I'll answer only the final question of the OP, no, I don't think it's possible, given the anti-trust laws in the US. It could be put into place, might survive briefly, but would shortly have dissenters breaking away.
Anders

It's more that everything is ruined by online and not so much face-to-face. The more we get teams talking to each other and hanging out the more people are willing to lend a hand. Just from doing the press interviewing at LSPR I made a whole lot of new friends that I probably never would have got a chance to talk to at an event because of their seed above/below me. From clubs you can get meaningful championships and comradery. Take example Cody Crane in the PNW. A guy who has the talent and people form his region get together to start funding campaigns to get him in OTR and lending parts and help to fix his car back up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2013 06:26PM by BillyElliot.

Quote
Anders Green
Rally needs less of "the voice of the competitors".

It needs more of "the hands of the competitors".

Rally doesn't need more polls or opinions, it needs more people selflessly working to make things happen.

The voice of the competitors will say: "We want-
-more rallies closer to us!
-lower entry fees! Yea!
-longer stages! More miles is more than less miles.
-more night stages! Well yeah
-supps posted earlier!
-cheaper notes! bugger
-more superspecial stages in front of big crowds! get serious
-a univeral license!
-a universal time card!
-a universal rule book!
-uniform classes!....................1 4wd and one 2wd, we've beaten this to death.
-more publicity!....only if a direct tangible benefit to organiser or team..
-more promotional stuff provided to help us get sponsors!
-tv coverage! fawk tv
-better scoring! Your scoring is good enough
-real sponsors!----------LOCAL SPONSORS
-more transparency!---well yeah
-fewer delays!" shit happens

And maybe a few other things too, none of which will be a surprise to people that have been around a while. Anyway, just start from the premise that organizers and sanctioning bodies already know all the things on this list... that unfortunately does nothing toward creating a solution for any of them. Some are possible, some aren't, there's a lot of _additional_ work that is required for them.

To the original post, it seems that the club system proposed nearly mirrors the system in Canada. Let's just skip all the in between stuff, Keith, if America was organized like Canada, what problems do you think that would solve?

I'll answer only the final question of the OP, no, I don't think it's possible, given the anti-trust laws in the US. It could be put into place, might survive briefly, but would shortly have dissenters breaking away.

Anders

Yep everybody is always smrater-er than everybody else, even when they've never done things, they thought of sumpin' so it must be good.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2013 06:52PM by john vanlandingham.

isnt the CRS kinda fitting to this concept?

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Exactly Billy. My point was all those issues have layers of complication to them, interactions with many areas of compromise (as your notes show). Thus the much more simplifed polls would be useless, and getting "the voice of many" to actually agree and forward a complicated message is not a great use of time.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green
Rally needs less of "the voice of the competitors".
It needs more of "the hands of the competitors".

Why all the focus on competitors? Rally is an important hobby to so many who aren't competitors. (In fact, competitors are probably only half of the 'players' in the game)

Quote
Anders Green
Rally doesn't need more polls or opinions, it needs more people selflessly working to make things happen.

But without polls and opinions, people may be selflessly working in the wrong direction.

Quote
Anders Green
The voice of the competitors will say: "We want-..."

'Then help make it happen' is the best come back to them.
I use it often and have gotten help from some of the top competitors in the country by doing so.

Quote
Anders Green
To the original post, it seems that the club system proposed nearly mirrors the system in Canada. Let's just skip all the in between stuff, Keith, if America was organized like Canada, what problems do you think that would solve?

The 'club system' builds a sense of community and a feeling that we are 'all' working for a common good. It also builds in a certain amount of accountability to the 'membership.'

As an example, volunteers are more apt to give of their time, resources and knowledge knowing that any event surpluses are going into the 'club coffers' rather than the back pocket of 'the event chairman.' Similarly, people are more likely to step up and organize and event if they know 'the club' will underwrite any deficits at the end of the day. (assuming they were fiscally responsible)

Quote
Anders Green
I'll answer only the final question of the OP, no, I don't think it's possible, given the anti-trust laws in the US.

Anti-trust, anti-smust.
What you say has more to do with people wanting to do things their own way for no other reason than it being a 'god given American right.' The big advantage of the club system is shared financial risk and benefit - probably a bit too much like socialism for some.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Okay, I'm finally on a regular computer. Ironic how my post count will drop now that I usually am on here on a stupid phone...

Here is what it would take, and the club idea is only part of the idea...
Basically, first you need all the stakeholders to have a vested interest in local events.
A new nested system of local, regional, national. Drivers are seeded like it used to be. You cannot compete for championships until your seed is appropriate.
Local championship consists of one or more full stage rallies of >60 stage miles and as many rallysprint events as possible.
Local clubs pay only for sanction and insurance and are allowed autonomy with how they wish to operate outside of this. Each local club is allowed to select one event within their locale that will be part of the regional championship. Minimal annual license/membership fee.
Regional championship will be one event from each locality with a maximum of 4 events making the championship. (>4 local clubs means a rotating schedule of events.)
Any driver that placed in the top 3 in the previous years local championship is granted free entry at any regional event outside their region provided they compete in the full regional championship. They pay regular entry fee at their local regional championship event plus a regional championship license fee.
Each region picks one event to be their contribution to the National Championship. Only drivers that have placed in the top 10 in their regional championships in the previous year are allowed to compete for the National Championship. National Championship to not exceed four events. Entry fee due for within region but free for out of region events.

Local only events = route book only.
Regional only events = stage notes, no recce.
All National events = recce and stage notes.
Ie. An event that is part of local, regional, and national championship has recce and stage notes for everyone.

So, now everyone becomes a stakeholder. There is a meaningful local championship and people that don't want to spend boatloads of time and money rallying can compete for local championship. There is an incentive for continuing to support local events as it is seat time and gets you free entries for regional championships. Similarly for continuing to do regional championship if you want to be national championship.
Each locale has the ability to choose how they want to operate. One region might be club based with annual dues and voting and such. Another might have a company running the local championship as a business. It doesn't really matter, provided there is growth and good competition.
There needs to be: Live updates and post-event video production for every event and every championship.

---

Grant Hughes

I could see that.

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.