Instead of focusing on the quality of the racing for the competitor, its now more important to spoon feed it to "The consumers" and make it sellable to the Corporate masters.

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Morison
From what I've seen, the issue is the lack of meaningful action on day 3.

I think the answer might actually be - and some will hate this - shorter events.
I was chatting with Buffum once about the length of Canadian Nationals and he was candid about the fact that he thought much over 150 to 170 km was pointless because the positions were pretty much set by then and only something out of the ordinary would change the finishing order.

I don't see how this plan makes any sense, unless there is a separate 'power stage' championship

Buffums been saying that since the late 80s "All the positions are" verbatim--as bad as me with this monomania.

Bullshit then, may bullshit for most EXCEPT THE RICH GUYS --who have gone crazy and bought cars that require constant service and mountains of parts.. THEY and the people just cruising at 38mph on SSs MAY SETTLE IN and cruise in position, but not everybody does...

I like Buffum but he know which side of the bread is getting butter and that's what he talks up..

So sure for those just doing this for the appearance of rallying, so the people spending millions have some "action shots" THEY can say they are done at 60 or 70 miles, so no point, but some people who spend their OWN MONEY towing 3 days might want more than an hour and 20 minutes of fun...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I feel like a broken record saying it, but, participation is the only thing that matters.
The best and most avid fans are competitors. The younger you get them, the harder they are hooked. We need more ways to get youth into cars and into racing cars and rally cars. I'm continually amazed at the number of street cars go in and out of the performance shop across the parking lot from my wife's lab. Young guys spending thousands on fancy turbos, intercoolers, engine builds, and other such things for a street car that loses money even faster than a rally car!

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
I feel like a broken record saying it, but, participation is the only thing that matters.
The best and most avid fans are competitors. The younger you get them, the harder they are hooked. We need more ways to get youth into cars and into racing cars and rally cars. I'm continually amazed at the number of street cars go in and out of the performance shop across the parking lot from my wife's lab. Young guys spending thousands on fancy turbos, intercoolers, engine builds, and other such things for a street car that loses money even faster than a rally car!

disagree in regards to the kiddies spending money on crap for their ego. 90% of them are posers that have bought into the current "you are what you wear" mentality. Sure you could get a couple into rally but you will find most get bored and quit (even if they have the money) because they can't get a medal or participation award. Don't you know it's bad for kids to "loose"? EVERYONE is a winner. Its instant gratification or they loose interest.

back to the topic at hand -FIA loosing its spine- if a plan like this is even discussed by the FIA, its the sign of dark days ahead. The 60's and prior were gentlemen and ladies that are best defined by the word enthusiasts. 70's & 80's were the era of passion and desire to win at all cost. 90's and early 2000 was business. Desire to win, but corporate handholding was the core. Now we are stuck neck deep into this rape and pillage mentality. Get in fast. Strip as much money from everything, burn the carcass and move on. If the top level of our sport goes down this road, we better pray to the rally gods another sanctioning body steps in. Next thing you know Dakar will be a weekend hillclimb in so-cal won by Ken Block the traveling shoe salesman.

---

Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

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john vanlandingham
Buffums been saying that since the late 80s "All the positions are" verbatim--as bad as me with this monomania.

Bullshit then, may bullshit for most EXCEPT THE RICH GUYS --who have gone crazy and bought cars that require constant service and mountains of parts.. THEY and the people just cruising at 38mph on SSs MAY SETTLE IN and cruise in position, but not everybody does...

I don't know. I'd say the vast majority of positions are 'set' by the 150km mark with the battles yet to be won being in the vast minority.

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john vanlandingham
So sure for those just doing this for the appearance of rallying, so the people spending millions have some "action shots" THEY can say they are done at 60 or 70 miles, so no point, but some people who spend their OWN MONEY towing 3 days might want more than an hour and 20 minutes of fun...

But the thing you need to consider in this is the resources that go into having our fun, such as the volunteers out in the woods for hours and hours on end. (Typical volunteer day - from what I've seen - is ~2-3 hours longer than the competitors.)

I guess it is something of a question of what the rally is there for. It is all about having fun or is the primary goal to see who can be the fastest, and on time. I think it is the latter, really, for most of us but that isn't to say there isn't fun to be had.

I worked out the per km cost on a well built and maintained PGT car a while ago. This covered all of the cost (amortised re-prep, brakes, race gas, depreciation, insurance, etc.) and landed at something in the range of $75/km. Once the standings have been settled and the last day is 'keeping station' - is it worth the extra $750? (plus hotel, plus food, plus...)

This ain't about participation medals :-)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

So the cheapest option for all, competitors and workers would be to just do one stage? No place keeping thataway.

Trying to find logic in the FIA thought processes is a totally stupid attempt in frustration.

Determining event or stage length is not easy either. At OT for example Higgins had a substantial lead going into the second day but still had to go quick enough to keep Ken from pulling too much time per stage. Ken had to run hard to try and overtake. So maybe you have a coaster on one hand and a maniac on the other. Averages out to the same as two guys 2 seconds apart.

Quote
Morison
From what I've seen, the issue is the lack of meaningful action on day 3.

I think the answer might actually be - and some will hate this - shorter events.
I was chatting with Buffum once about the length of Canadian Nationals and he was candid about the fact that he thought much over 150 to 170 km was pointless because the positions were pretty much set by then and only something out of the ordinary would change the finishing order.

I don't see how this plan makes any sense, unless there is a separate 'power stage' championship

This position ignores much longer format races that are quite similar in nature--see Dakar/Baja which, though are 10+ times longer than your typical Canadian rally are often well within doubt to the final days/miles...I think if you want the last day to be meaningful WRC events need to be HARDER. All the bitching about dust, road conditions, blah, blah, blah...bunch of pansies looking for a tarmac race. Go harder, go longer--more mistakes, more broken parts, more flats, more errors=closer/more unpredictable results.

---

www.nismostuff.blogspot.com

So, what I want to know is when did this lame idea first get thought up?

Was it before Loeb announced his retirement? Because then I'd get it. Gotta come up with some way to get another winner once in a while.

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Ogier will now win for the next 9 years.

Quote
zerodegreec
disagree in regards to the kiddies spending money on crap for their ego. 90% of them are posers that have bought into the current "you are what you wear" mentality. Sure you could get a couple into rally but you will find most get bored and quit

You say that like it's not already true. Here's some science: The average number of rallies run by the "bottom 50%" of participation, in the US, since the year 2000....

1.91

So we're talking about half the people that have ever rallied (in the US), over more than a decade, are racking up less than two rallies. Ever. For their whole rally "career".

So, those "get bored and quit" types, they are making up half the sport (in one sense). We absolutely need more of them. I'd love to have more of them. And if the average could be raised from under 2 to 3... that's a 50% increase by 50% of the participants.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

I doubt many of them "get bored" rather they "get poor" instead.

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Anders Green

Quote
zerodegreec
disagree in regards to the kiddies spending money on crap for their ego. 90% of them are posers that have bought into the current "you are what you wear" mentality. Sure you could get a couple into rally but you will find most get bored and quit

You say that like it's not already true. Here's some science: The average number of rallies run by the "bottom 50%" of participation, in the US, since the year 2000....

1.91

So we're talking about half the people that have ever rallied (in the US), over more than a decade, are racking up less than two rallies. Ever. For their whole rally "career".

So, those "get bored and quit" types, they are making up half the sport (in one sense). We absolutely need more of them. I'd love to have more of them. And if the average could be raised from under 2 to 3... that's a 50% increase by 50% of the participants.

Anders

Golly Dr. Sceince, any statisticular analysis of what color car these 1.9 type guys drive?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
12xalt
I doubt many of them "get bored" rather they "get poor" instead.

Ding.

Any form of racing (unless you are in I'd say the top 75% of earners in your respective country) requires serious sacrifice to consider doing while maintaining any form of stability at home.

I'd have a very nice house right now (and I mean VERY nice), not the condo I'm looking at buying, if I hadn't raced for the past 8 years, and I earn decent coin. Racing through post secondary is a real kicker as well.

So to get dedicated inviduals like this is hard. You also get people (my co-driver Jeff is a perfect example) who likes/loves rally, has competed, but doesn't find the amount of effort required to the amount of awesome output to work for himself. That's just the way it goes. There are a lot of hobbies people can enjoy that aren't as all time consuming. Including road racing (which has it's pluses and minuses).

Quote
spalind

Quote
Morison
From what I've seen, the issue is the lack of meaningful action on day 3.

I think the answer might actually be - and some will hate this - shorter events.
I was chatting with Buffum once about the length of Canadian Nationals and he was candid about the fact that he thought much over 150 to 170 km was pointless because the positions were pretty much set by then and only something out of the ordinary would change the finishing order.

I don't see how this plan makes any sense, unless there is a separate 'power stage' championship

This position ignores much longer format races that are quite similar in nature--see Dakar/Baja which, though are 10+ times longer than your typical Canadian rally are often well within doubt to the final days/miles...I think if you want the last day to be meaningful WRC events need to be HARDER. All the bitching about dust, road conditions, blah, blah, blah...bunch of pansies looking for a tarmac race. Go harder, go longer--more mistakes, more broken parts, more flats, more errors=closer/more unpredictable results.

Oh, "but I didn't have my split times for 3 stages, so I didn't know how fast to drive"! Ever think about just driving?

---

Don Kennedy

WRC has had one superstar in the last decade, Petter. Loeb is an amazing driver, Senna like in his talent and abilities but he is so lacking in personality, sparkle, showmanship whatever it is that draws the world in to a star. Marcus has had a few crowd moments but too stoic. Travis is a star for those same qualities. Block makes nice videos, but Travis can work a crowd like no other. Butchering the premise of rally sure as hell won't make anyone a 'star'. Tossing out weeks of prep and days of hard competition and teamwork won't make a star of anyone. The Sunday show will still be the same, cars only go so fast down a stage (one at a time, 6 0 s e c o n d s apart ) the times will be the same but the winner may well end up being the loser. Sweet.

Excitement comes only with fender to fender racing, or possibly 2 cars on the split circuit aka Race of Champions. Humans are a competitive , blood thirsty crowd. We don't play football with one team on the field at a time. Shit they line up 4 deep for drag racing these days , I find that a bit hard to watch.

Rally is as popular now as it ever was, that's my new opinion. Same amount of competitors, workers and organizers. Unfortunately the world population keeps growing daily and the percentage of rally people keeps shrinking.

FIA...farked in the ass...

I think something people need to consider is that the FIA is working with a new promoter and is almost certainly obligated to talk about 'new ideas.'

I can certainly tell you that in my discussion with both WRC commission President and WRC Manager, their vision for the future of Rally was basically true to the heritage of the sport although the WRC is very much a commercial project and with that comes some redirection of priorities.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2013 01:19PM by Morison.