Recce issues

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Doivi Clarkinen
Really? What a bunch of pussies.

Now, now. No need for name calling.

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Doivi Clarkinen
I did plenty of rallies in Western Canada back in the days before recce and pace notes. It seemed to be viable back then. What changed?

- Organisers like having entries? (even low turn out events today are more than double what they were 15 years ago)
- Competitors like running on pace notes and not being at the whim of what an organizer thinks is important about the road many weeks before the event.
- Competitors hate breaking cars on 'gotchas,' with recce they can only blame themselves. (same reason some don't like running jemba without recce)
- Competitors have come to expect recce at events.
- For drivers who have done recce and notes from their first stage, running a routebook isn't enjoyable. Many don't understand why anyone would rally that way. (I know drivers who have done a routebook rally and said they'd never do it again.)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
For drivers who have done recce and notes from their first stage, running a routebook isn't enjoyable. Many don't understand why anyone would rally that way. (I know drivers who have done a routebook rally and said they'd never do it again.)

Try co-drivers. I'd have slim to no interest in co-driving in a tulip/routebook only rally (the Mexican 1000 presented its own challenges that kept me quite busy).

Also, it's hard for a driver to focus on driving technique (aka hammer down at all times except for some brief/late braking) when they don't know whats on the other side of the corner up ahead.

Looks to me like the ARC/BRC/FRC all run notes (or at least organizer supplied, but they seem quite good). What makes 'merika so special to not do so?

Anywho, I'm happy that there is still recce... means I still might come down to race

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Tom B
fuck recce. With ron barker tulips my life is complete.

Says someone signed up for recce at the Nameless Rally.

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Tom B
fuck recce. With ron barker tulips my life is complete.

*Ding!

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

I figure it kinda comes down to american culture. The whole pay my way out of anything fuck everyone else selfishness is a problem. I hate the way we can't just assume that everyone will act like adults here, but we can't, because they won't. And there's always going to be someone not involved in the event that is going to be a whiner and complainer.

If we have to go to a route book and drop recce and that causes a couple of entries lost, then too me that's gotta be better than losing the whole event. Is it the lost entries that would have caused the problems? Probably not.

It's just sad that so many people need babysitters.

As someone who as only ever run 2 pass recce I don't think I'd ever want to run an event without it, it would absolutely factor into my decision about whether or not to enter. But that's coming from the Canuckian standpoint everyone is ragging on Keith over.

Unfortunately like so many motorsports you have to babysit and punish as organizers. It means more work and more hassle to force adults to behave like adults, but DSQ a few teams for misbehaving and the message (should) get across.

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Atlantic Canadian Region Rallysport: http://www.rallyeast.ca - Ledwidge Lookoff Rally http://www.lookoffrally.com
2000 Impreza 2.5RS CARS P4WD (Sponsored by Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 09:00PM by OjNK.

Is there any chance that is just your standard disgruntled local being pissy? No one find it odd that these misdeeds were so horrifying that they can't stand to bear the thought it might happen again yet nothing was mentioned 'til now?

Everyone that doesn't like us jumps up and down and says "They's was a racin'g downs ma road, goin' to beat the band!!"

Meh to recce and notes. My only stage experience was running with tulips. I tried running a shakedown stage once on stage notes...reading that stuff is too much like work! I can't imagine writing notes and reciting that stuff and not getting hopelessly lost.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to be stupid enough to sit in the silly seat, you should at least be able to enjoy the ride! Notes are not fun for this knucklehead.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Meh to tulip blind rallies.
I remember co-driving an event on tulips and counting down to a 'medium right.' My driver kept on yelling at me for getting the distance wrong because were went through about a half dozen 'medium right's before getting to the one deemed worthy of the routebook - and there was nothing distinctive about it over the others beyond being at the right distance.
I know some routemasters giggle with joy at the idea of having just a start and stop instruction.

Local knowledge is a massive advantage at blind events.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

An accurate speedo and odometer should be mandatory in both the recce and rally vehicles.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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Rallymech
An accurate speedo and odometer should be mandatory in both the recce and rally vehicles.

Accurate to what? (Our recce car will be accurate in Kilometers)

Rally odos should be calibrated to the routebook (but I wouldn't bet on it)

Street cars are allowed to have a variance of up to 5% I think, and that's before you start changing tires. You could calibrate to the routebook but what are the radar guns calibrated to?

The reality is that you'll want to allow ~20% before any enforcement, particularly to the extent of exclusion. You'll also want to have a process for giving notice of violations and warnings. (the radar displays we have now include a large display for drivers to see their speeds) Might not hurt to set something up for people to check their speeds with at HQ.

Last year at Kananaskis I very nearly gave someone the boot. In the end, the steward suggested that we hadn't given the competitor clear enough notice of his violations to support exclusion. (We had a three strikes rule, with increasing fines with each offense.)

I support Gene's intent to exclude violators, but you had better be damned sure of any violation.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 11:30PM by Morison.

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Doivi Clarkinen

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Morison

I seriously doubt a blind event would be viable in Western Canada.

Really? What a bunch of pussies. I did plenty of rallies in Western Canada back in the days before recce and pace notes. It seemed to be viable back then. What changed?

You already nailed it. I keep saying Dave that we we started, nearly everybody except Steve Roberts, Sam Bryan and Tim Patterson and a tiny few others, most were working class guys...Ya know? People that worked. Many in some way around cars.... now.....it is no longer the case...
So yes, you're right if you ask me, buncha pussies.. 2 pass recce or we'll stay home, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
After 4 events "I NEED a dog-box" whaaaaaaaaaaaa!
3 or 4 days to do 110-110 SS miles....
Hours of service after every 20 miles....

I just my 6 speed STI box and I need a 1800 buck diff controler, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!" (wouldn't need a $1800 diff controler if you didn't buy a awd car with all sorts of diffs all over the place--just to play in a little event with 22 other cars, so solly round eye!


Different people. Different expectations, what to tyou expect from people who pamper themselves?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, you always point out - correctly - the vast majority of us do this for fun.
Smiles per mile and seat-time are king.

2 pass recce or we'll stay home isn't 'whaaaaaaa' at all. It's a statement that for some, blind events on just a routebook simply aren't fun so why would they subject themselves to it.

I've done events as a driver and co-driver on tulips, on Jemba and on pace notes.
I know which is the most fun for me.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

Local knowledge is a massive advantage at blind events.

Keith I'm trying to be nice but you know i don't take kindly to old wives tale bullshit repeated for decades as a truth..

IF local knowledge is such an advantage,

as all the consumers who insist that in order to drive as slowly and shittily as they do, they must have recce 2 times--and then go get STOMPED by an aging Australian in a tiny little 1.6 liter non turbo 2wd car---proving finally that most people are driving shittier than shit---especially ALL those in turbo 4wd cars

THEN how do you explain my best national results being at events I had never done before? And rusty. Never been to Maine before I won there, never been to Michigan before and din't win but did SS times in top 6-7 or even top 5-----only to be sunk by my poor overwhelmed co-driver who got is 13 minutes of full minuted MTC penalties..
2 full year layoff prior to Maine Gp2 win--tired car too
3 month or more layoff prior to Gp2 4th (with nasty penalties) with even tired-er car

How do you explain that..

Oh while you're explaining
That Ozzie guy :first time in those woods, 2 miserble little passes versus some people there with 5 or even 12 years in those woods, and many passes..

Local knowledge in my extremely limited experience of 45 years racing all over the world--not visting and talking---or so, is one of the more transparent flimsy excuses lightweights pull out of there hat to explain their results..

Excuse schmemksuse..

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison
Meh to tulip blind rallies.
I remember co-driving an event on tulips and counting down to a 'medium right.' My driver kept on yelling at me for getting the distance wrong because were went through about a half dozen 'medium right's before getting to the one deemed worthy of the routebook - and there was nothing distinctive about it over the others beyond being at the right distance.
I know some routemasters giggle with joy at the idea of having just a start and stop instruction.

Local knowledge is a massive advantage at blind events.

Obviously I've been spoiled having only run routebooks done by the Northwest Group... Where the tulips are where they should be and very rarely a gotcha. The driver still has to drive what he sees and is subject to the incentive....

Jemba Notes weren't all that for me.... Two pass Recce made for a ridiculous amount of time to do a rally and no doubt annoying traffic for everyone affected leading up to the event.

I've heard many horror stories of 'Routebooks' in the rest of the country. That said.... Choice of lose Recce or lose the rally? Fuck the notes..... and those who cost us the stage.... That's a real pisser. DQ for one event seems too kind.

Behave yourselves! We are guests on those roads. Often not very welcome guests at that.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun