Recce issues

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Morison
John, you always point out - correctly - the vast majority of us do this for fun.
Smiles per mile and seat-time are king.

2 pass recce or we'll stay home isn't 'whaaaaaaa' at all. It's a statement that for some, blind events on just a routebook simply aren't fun so why would they subject themselves to it.

I've done events as a driver and co-driver on tulips, on Jemba and on pace notes.
I know which is the most fun for me.

Yeah, how many?
Seriously, how many good route book events? I sioad good, not some of the crap I've seen elsewhere.

30? 40?

More?

Andf how many of the whiners have done ANY?

You notice that plenty of people who have done PLENTY say "whatever", only the Johnny-come lately softies INSIST that things MUST satisfy their heightened whimsical taste or they don't want to play..
The Old Original Dave Clark was right: pussies..

ANY person with any desire to rally, have fun and improve would JUMP on EVERY opportunity to drive--as we see many who despise the mendacity of what we'll call "The Fogg Factor" yet they go out anyway ..

The divide in this "I want it my way --like you buddy Bryan's PM shrieking a demand I don't affectionately use the word Canajian--as told to by fun guys in Quebec--
Or we don't go..." and those who say "Ready to go. What's THIS event's format, OK let's roll" is too huge a difference in world view to bridge.


"I want 2 pass recce or i won't go" <--Real flexibility, real stepping up to the challenge, real keep on keepin on..
Oi! I'd be ashamed if I was such a softie..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 12:41AM by john vanlandingham.

Quote
Morison
Street cars are allowed to have a variance of up to 5% I think, and that's before you start changing tires. You could calibrate to the routebook but what are the radar guns calibrated to?

The reality is that you'll want to allow ~20% before any enforcement, particularly to the extent of exclusion.

Bullshit. Easy as can be. Where there is a quiet zone it means be quiet. No need to define that.

No speeding means keep it to five under if you have any question whatsoever. This will do good things for keeping noise down too.

We're adults. If you can't manage to be quiet or keep your speed in check on a transit... in particular in an area sensitive to such things..... Stay home.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

John (Lane)
My comments were from an organiser's perspective - and one that has dealt with recce for many years!

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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john vanlandingham
Seriously, how many good route book events? I sioad good, not some of the crap I've seen elsewhere.

See, that thar is the precise problem. The variable quality of the routebook comes in to play far too much.

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john vanlandingham
30? 40? More?

Nope - far less than that. A total of about 8 events on routebook only, 6 of which had good books. (Westwick's books are heavily detailed)

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john vanlandingham
Andf how many of the whiners have done ANY?

I don't know. How many have you done... you're being kind of whiney. (actually, I am curious about how many two-pass, write your own note, recce events you have done.)
As for the 'whiners' (who aren't actually whining, they're just saying what they want and what they are willing to put their entry money into) I suspect many haven't done any blind rallies. Some have, but certainly a minority if you're talking about Canada.

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john vanlandingham
You notice that plenty of people who have done PLENTY say "whatever", only the Johnny-come lately softies INSIST that things MUST satisfy their heightened whimsical taste or they don't want to play..

But those who say 'whatever' are also used to the PNW 'barker books' and arrows on every instruction. I'd strongly suggest that is out of the ordinary - certainly from my limited experience it is. Beyond that, how many of the people saying 'whatever' have done a lot of their own note writing. It makes it a different game altogether.
(I'd ask how many also want the local knowledge advantage that comes with a blind event, but that's kind of rude, so I won't)

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john vanlandingham
"I want 2 pass recce or i won't go" <--Real flexibility, real stepping up to the challenge, real keep on keepin on..
Oi! I'd be ashamed if I was such a softie..

It ain't about 'being soft' it's about knowing what you want and what you enjoy combined with not wanting to spend thousands to do something you don't enjoy.
I've known more than a couple of people who have 'grown up' rallywise on notes who have done a single blind event and said 'that wasn't any fun at all, I won't bother doing that event again.' (and that was on a 'good' routebook)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

This isn't recce or no recce,

This is 'Fuck you and your asshat friends, get off my land'

Adam V. saying all drivers hear is 'Fast' is something a flat-brim would say.
If a driver is happy to pay a fine, make them sad by kicking them out of NW rallies, and escorting them to personally apologize to the ticked off landowner.
And where did this talk of 'be serious about that threat, Gene, Alan' come from? If you've never had a conversation with an organizer, try having one while you're writing the 'I'm an asshole check', and they're trying decide whether this is the last year they put up with this shit.

Some bawlsy shit happened at the MTC final check-in at Oregon Trail by people who should have known better. Stink-eye wouldn't cover 1/10th of the look I was given by the guy on his front porch, and I was going the quiet zone speed limit. The only people with the power to make a good decision at that point, were the ones in the loud obnoxious cars. Speeding though town was never the right choice.

If you appreciate the opportunity to play in the woods, and be a competitor (which recce certainly helps with), then you have to Respect everyone who has worked to give you that opportunity, and any conditions placed on that opportunity.

There is a speed limit, and a consequence. If you can afford a rally tire, you can buy a GPS (your phone), which is accurate relative to the speed of LIGHT. No excuses, no 20%. Don't be a dick, and expand your brain beyond the helmet sized Ego bubble that you're floating in.


-Addressed to Idiots, and 'un-cultured infants'

---

"I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane
http://CraneRallyCrew.com
corolla gt-s "Patches"
Op: S.S.

I've done ten or so events.. The last 2008. Tulips, Jemba, and two pass recce.

Recce is great for discovering the 'gotchas'.
You have to really know what you're doing with recce in order to create notes while driving at the speed limit that accurately reflect how your rally car will react at much greater speed.
Recce SUCKS because it means a full LONG extra day driving around very slowly in a bunch of dust. Extra hotel night, food, and time off work.

It's up to the organizers and competitors. Whatever they want to do.

I'd rather lessen the cost and drive on GOOD tulip notes. If I'm going to do an extra day I'd rather spend that day rallying. I was attracted to the grassroots nature of the sport originally. Real cars real roads etc.

Oh, and I think Rally Solo is a wonderful option (nothing against co drivers) that obviously makes it all about driving skills and risk management real time.

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acrane

Adam V. saying all drivers hear is 'Fast' is something a flat-brim would say.

Uh, nope, I'm saying it as a co-driver who has over 30 events under his belt, a volunteer that brings that to over 40 events, and the guy who masquerades as trying to help out rallying in Western Canada. Nice try though.

Obviously, the statement wasn't aimed at people who are serious about their driving (which is like 5% of all rally drivers). Most drivers have SERIOUS listening issues that will never allow them to ever be truly "fast".

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JohnLane
Bullshit. Easy as can be. Where there is a quiet zone it means be quiet. No need to define that.

No speeding means keep it to five under if you have any question whatsoever. This will do good things for keeping noise down too.

Quiet is subjective. My rally car is one of the loudest around. If somebody decided to go "you were too loud in the quiet zone" and I asked for the DB results and they didn't have them, it's a rally that I wouldn't be going back to . The 5 under rule is fine, as long as it was stipulated in the routebook as being such (we've had these on dusty transits that run right by farmer's houses).

As for someone that thinks his results from decades ago means anything, somehow his experience trumps others. Same ol' same ol'.

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12xalt
I guess this means I ought to get my speedometer working, eh?

Until then, follow a friend around at 30 and 20 and even, if needed, 10 mph. Choose an appropriate gear and memorise the rpms needed to maintain those speeds. Voila! A speedometer!

"partial panel"

Simon

---

Simon Wright
Owner/Driver USUK Racing - Home of the USUK Racing LED Light Bars!

North America Rally Map

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simoniac

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12xalt
I guess this means I ought to get my speedometer working, eh?

Until then, follow a friend around at 30 and 20 and even, if needed, 10 mph. Choose an appropriate gear and memorise the rpms needed to maintain those speeds. Voila! A speedometer!

"partial panel"

Simon

Better yet get a nice new Magic Marker and write on the tunnel II--25mph=2150
(gear..II.......speed 25 mph....2150 rpm) or whatever needed. 30km or whatever.

You have it right by the gearshift in large, friendly letters.
We are talking driver ya know...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hmmm... somehow I missed this classic piece of JVL diversion.

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john vanlandingham
Keith I'm trying to be nice but you know i don't take kindly to old wives tale bullshit repeated for decades as a truth.

Local knowledge is AN advantage. It can't help but be an advantage and having drivers that drive harder and faster still win doesn't negate that.
BUT, that's not saying it is a decisive advantage on its own.

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john vanlandingham
IF local knowledge is such an advantage,

as all the consumers who insist that in order to drive as slowly and shittily as they do, they must have recce 2 times--and then go get STOMPED by an aging Australian in a tiny little 1.6 liter non turbo 2wd car---proving finally that most people are driving shittier than shit---especially ALL those in turbo 4wd cars

I'm not sure who you're talking about here.
Wil Orders is in his early 30s - hardly aging - but was driving his monster 240 by another name.
Brendan Reeves is 25 - even less aged, but driving the non-turbo 1.6l you mention.
How did Reeves stomp on the competition? There are a couple of factors at play here.
- This isn't just playing around for Reeves and his co-driver. They have lofty goals and treat the sport like a professional endeavour in all aspects.
- They made their own pace notes. Very different from what we see here and including VITAL information for the fiesta to shine.



- He actually pushes the car.
- He's coming off of two years of the WRC Academy, which means learning EVERYTHING about rally, including physical and mental conditioning. This is where they would have learned to make good notes in two passes of a new road.

THEN how do you explain my best national results being at events I had never done before? And rusty.[/quote]
You were faster than the other drivers?
While it might seem like a flippant answer, it isn't meant to be.
There are a number of factors at hand in any win and the why of the win - at our level - rarely comes down to a single factor.

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john vanlandingham
Local knowledge in my extremely limited experience of 45 years racing all over the world--not visting and talking---or so, is one of the more transparent flimsy excuses lightweights pull out of there hat to explain their results.

Local knowledge will very rarely be a 'decisive' factor but to dismiss it a one of the factors impacting performance - even in recce events - would be foolish. Local knowledge will always be a factor it's just that recce goes a long way towards leveling the imbalance.
If you tool two equal drivers in equal cars and put the in an event where one driver had done it once, twice or thrice before and the other had never been on the roads in the area before who do you think would win?
Do you seriously think that recce wouldn't close the gap between them?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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john vanlandingham
You have it right by the gearshift in large, friendly letters. We are talking driver ya know...

Why do I sense 'better get my tach working then' coming next. :-)

Just because I have to disagree with John for the sake of humanity it, I'd put the chart by the tach so you don't have to look down to find it. :-)

I'd also say follow a friend you trust and who isn't in your class to set the speeds ;-)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 10:26AM by Morison.

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acrane

Adam V. saying all drivers hear is 'Fast' is something a flat-brim would say.

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Uh, nope, I'm saying it as a co-driver who has over 30 events under his belt, a volunteer that brings that to over 40 events, and the guy who masquerades as trying to help out rallying in Western Canada. Nice try though.

Obviously, the statement wasn't aimed at people who are serious about their driving (which is like 5% of all rally drivers). Most drivers have SERIOUS listening issues that will never allow them to ever be truly "fast".

Yeah but your statment implies they don't listen to somebody--who presumably KNOWS BETTER in the car...when I say they don't listen to anybody...That for example is your problem: You imagine you "are somebody", and don't listen...

Fuck me your smugness is astounding..

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JohnLane
Bullshit. Easy as can be. Where there is a quiet zone it means be quiet. No need to define that.

No speeding means keep it to five under if you have any question whatsoever. This will do good things for keeping noise down too.

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Quiet is subjective.

No it is measurable--if a local is complaining that is the measurement that counts einstein.

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My rally car is one of the loudest around.

Fix it then. What the fuck is your problem? You have this giant compulsion to get noticed, well TRY DRIVING GOOD and NOT CRASHING. That will get you noticed more than being loud and obnoxious.

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If somebody decided to go "you were too loud in the quiet zone" and I asked for the DB results and they didn't have them, it's a rally that I wouldn't be going back to

Fine, see you later

.

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The 5 under rule is fine, as long as it was stipulated in the routebook as being such (we've had these on dusty transits that run right by farmer's houses).

Naturally...but there is something called eyes and some people have something called "brains" and some even develop something called "judgement" and "situational awareness' so the see a house near the road, they know the major difficulty above everything else in North American rally is securing road permissions and they on their own can figure out "Maybe I should be smart and slow down a tad" even if they haven't been explicitly told to..

For a guy who thinks he's sooooooooooooooo smart and "seen it all" you'd think you ought to be able to reckon that out.

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As for someone that thinks his results from decades ago means anything, somehow his experience trumps others. Same ol' same ol'.

None of the results anybody does here means anything.

But it is an extremely stupid person who thinks experience means nothing if it didn't happen yesterday.
And it is a really extraordinarily stupid person who thinks they know everything in advance of doing things..

You are really a fool Adam...and it wouldn't be so bad if you weren't so obnoxious when you've done nothing in this sport. Nothing.

Except run your mouth.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 10:51AM by john vanlandingham.

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Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
You have it right by the gearshift in large, friendly letters. We are talking driver ya know...

Why do I sense 'better get my tach working then' coming next. :-)

Just because I have to disagree with John for the sake of humanity it, I'd put the chart by the tach so you don't have to look down to find it. :-)

I'd also say follow a friend you trust and who isn't in your class to set the speeds ;-)

Well for obnoxious assholes who speed on transits and argue why they feel entitled to and argue then laugh they can happily pay the fines

--maybe a wire frame bent up from a coat-hanger mounted on the helmet with a big fat Post 'em note hanging right in front of their fat ugly faces might be better.

On the other hand if one is supposed to be driving 30 or 40 km/hr on a transit or a quiet zone, I would bet that most drivers could tear their eyes away from the road for a 1/2 second to glance ANYWHERE without flying off the road into Bottomless Canyon, and the LARGE Friendly letters on the tunnel might be clearer than some small cryptic chicken scratchings on an already crowded dash.

maybe..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Well all the in-fighting is nice but at the end of the stage....we can not and will not throw out all the hard work a region of people do because some people have trouble following posted requirements.

I've been at this a long time and have dealt with upset land owners before. Doesn't matter if they are being pissy or not, one case of violation can easily end it all. We lost a great stage that had a transit over about 100yds of private land. No one knew. The DNR allowed us use of the road for rally and never said anything about the private owner. The guy caught Ray Damitio and myself checking the route one day and asked us what we were doing. Then he said "No you're not" and no amount of asking, begging would change his mind. When you are playing your game on some one elses field they actually have a say in matters.

So,,,we will have a very specific recce (and transit) policy. It will be enforced. Not I'm not saying a 1 mph violation will result in exclusion but at some point of the scale it will reach overload. Those that know me, know I will stay the course.

Now to the argument at hand. Recce is a very costly item. The extra time, the increased interaction with the public, wear and tear on cars, required manpower and everyone's part. We absolutely know that rally can survive without it, lots of precedent there. Many of the old farts here who now provide events, cages, suspensions all survived blind, tulip'd, route booked events. We had fun doing it I seem to remember. Local knowledge can help a fast guy, just like a Sadev can help a fast guy. Neither will help a slow guy to any degree. Local knowledge can also hurt a fast guy when you remember the road incorrectly , been there done that. We need to remember that local knowledge is a variation of the inequities that life throws our way. Big wallets, new tires, better suspension, real service crews, 20/20 vision...all sorts of shit. If one and only one event happened then local knowledge might be a key factor. However we have many events that use many roads, that change from time to time. Using a stage once a year on an event is no guarantee that local knowledge is more that a memory of general characteristics.

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john vanlandingham
...the LARGE Friendly letters on the tunnel might be clearer than some small cryptic chicken scratchings on an already crowded dash.

Crowded-schmowded.
Big letters on a post-it note covering the not-working speedometer. Easy-peasy. Obvious-pobvious.

Easy to see, easy to find and 'always there' as a reminder. ALWAYS make important things easier when you can.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2013 11:22AM by Morison.