Recce issues
Posted by heymagic
steve czwalga Ultra Moderator Location: Pittsburgh, PA Join Date: 09/16/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 376 Rally Car: 95 awd celica |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Don Kennedy Senior Moderator Location: Reading, PA Join Date: 10/05/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 227 Rally Car: Impreza |
Banned Mod Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
LOL I'd forgotten about that graph  Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned. |
Banned Senior Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
Says who? How many? Why? (this is in jest, as I am simply putting the EXACT questions you posed to me back on you).
And as I said, taking a vacation day is something people should expect to do because it is RALLY. As Keith said, it is hard. It takes time. To expect to do any form of racing and only take one day is IMO naive.
You have to clarify tow distance (one way or round trip). My number is one way. Oh, and thats only for 3 rallies of our championship, the other three are 750+ miles one way. Pretty typical from the sounds of things if we are averaging.
Everything takes extra time and money. Somebody taking a "vacation day" to sit on their ass costs money in the sense you protray it. Point is, those vacation days are allotted for vacation. Once you start factoring in small business owners "taking days away from work" then of course you start to seriously skew the whole premise behind my opinion. http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf&sa=U&ei=LGyaUZW8Mc7kiwLn9ICwDA&ved=0CCYQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNH6xhmdzGLMSqX7cXYFE1mPFThviA What about the 300 million other people in the US that aren't the head of a company? You're arguing semantics is my point.
Clearly not what I meant by simple. The idea is simple (more volunteers) the execution, not so much. Of course, I guess expecting people to think about my experience when they chat with me isn't an expectation I should have going forward on any conversation on here (me=young person which clearly one as young as myself can't possibly have any experience in such matter while everyone=experience because they are older. brilliant, ageism at its finest!)
You also have been making observations ON my observations without any statistical backing. Goes both ways. This is the internet, I'm not going to clarify every detail with a graph for you Anders. Sorry. The fact that you dismiss how much I actually pay attention to American rallies (which is IMO a significant amount more than most) is also humorous.
As keith pointed out, because things ebb and flow, people come and go. I've looked at the data before. Clearly there is no convincing you Anders, I'm quickly becoming aware of that, so the debate is obviously pointless. I can live with that. In fact, the debate is moot since you can do whatever you want (we both live in free countries).
And their traffic is crazy compared to ours and their fuel much more expensive. Somebody once posted what they figured were costs to do X amount of events in their respective championships in the US (might have been Canada) and Britain. Turns out, it's about the same minus entry-fees. Edit- As for the time, considering most rallyists (a stat provided by you) don't do more than what, 3 events in their hobby(?), leads me to believe it's not a (completely) time commitment issue. They better be spending more than a day prepping for an event typically, which I'd think is harder to get than a day on the weekend to travel. Probably comes down to money. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 04:34PM by HiTempguy. |
Simon Wright Junior Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 10/19/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 161 Rally Car: Rally Spec Focus |
Anders Green Ultra Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
The exact same question? Ha, I don't think so, as I made a statement. 
Rally is not a religion that people are bound too. You can raise the bar all you like as you worship "what rally should be" but in the last decade or so, about 1200 drivers have decided to do other things. (in the US) (but of course, you know this already, since you follow American rally so closely?)
Allotted? For vacation, yeah, for rally, no. And an organizer or group deciding to add an extra day to rallies for recce doesn't change the employer's mind about how many vacation days he's handing out. Of course, it's also possible that people ARE already thinking about your experience, but your view of your experience and their view of your experience are different. This will be funny only to old people: it's only because you're young that you imagine it's ageism. 
If I met 30 year old me, I would find that my opinions on this topic were not as good as 40 year old me. Not because of my age, but because 40 year old me has spent an extra 10 years working on the problem. When I was in high school, I couldn't imagine what spending more than a couple weeks working on a project was like, as I had never done it. I got to college and began working on projects that took three months to complete and it changed my perspective. My senior project was something that took three semesters to do, and that changed my perspective again. I got out into work and began on projects that took 18 months. Then 3 year projects. Then 6 year projects. Each time, my idea of what could be accomplished, what was and wasn't important, how things worked, changed. I'm a young guy in the sport of rally, I've only been working on the organizing/event side for a little over 10 years. In the big scheme of things, I'm a rookie. But it's time more than age that makes it so. You could be 50, but if you started a year ago... (Side note: this forum does have some posters who have been on the back end for a long time. That's pretty unusual.) In ten years, I've met four racers who were not rally organizers that had a grasp of what went in to organizing rallies. My expectation of how much "most" racers know about how rally operates is that they don't. It would not be natural to expect them to. Buying a house doesn't make one a realtor. Flushing a toilet doesn't make you a plumber. Competing in a rally doesn't make you an organizer... it makes you a racer. You haven't demonstrated a wide reaching knowledge of American rallies, and the particular examples you cite are from your local area. The people that I know with two, three, and four decades of experience in this sport, especially those on the organizing side, who have seen what makes this sport tick for years and years... they all have a pretty large area where they say "I have a gut feeling about x, but I'm not SURE." And the things they are certain of are pretty small. Although the title of the graph is about politics, and the "death line" is in there, it's like this: 
And while it proves nothing, and statistics don't determine individual result, and causation and correlation are not equivalent... you seem pretty sure of your position. I can only submit, as I did before, that you continue to gather information. If you're right, you'll find much more corroborating data. If not, you'll find something else that is also very interesting.
Ha! Well, you certainly can't convince me with "Because we have four new people, I'm certain we're ok", and then when I ask a question, respond with "Hey, man, it's like, you know, ebb and flow. I, like, saw the data, ok, man?" What you're missing is that I didn't say that your statement was wrong I said that I believed you had made a much stronger statement than you could back up, since half the analysis was missing. I haven't even disagreed with you on some of these points, I'm saying "Explain to me more fully why this is so." I don't need a graph, but what you said is as valid as "I peed a gallon, I'm certain I'm dehydrated!" and then getting upset when I ask "How much water did you drink?"
If as soon as there are questions about the source of your opinions, you get huffy and say "It's obvious you can't be convinced of anything." then I don't know that we'll be able to make much progress. There is nothing inherent in the sport of rally that guarantees ebb and flow. HAS ebbed and flowed does not help one in deciding the proper path for the future, especially if one believes that those ups and down were not connected to something. Invoking "ebb and flow" is the equivalent of throwing your hands up and saying "It doesn't matter what we do." Plenty of sports have disappeared into obscurity. Dang! I did not realize we had already reached: 
I love that graph.
Now, some motorcycle work, then, some data-mining/AI work. Woohoo! Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
Aaron Gibson Elite Moderator Location: South Burlington, VT Join Date: 08/27/2012 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 83 Rally Car: Cars are lame, I have a motorcycle |
Now that was one country ass kicking....internet style
The youth think the older folks are holding youth against them, while the older folks just shake their head and think..... " Boy am I glad I'm not XX years old anymore" I've met old and young wise people but I've known educated idiots and witnessed illiterate genius first hand. What my age has shown me is that there is no hard and fast rule for anything and when you think you know it all...... life kicks you in the ass. As I venture into my mid 40's, I realized that giving a fuck was hindering my ability to enjoy life, so I stopped..... cold turkey. Drinking at rally events is also good, you should stumble back to your hotel room at least one night of the event, preferably the night before the first day. I experimented a bit this year at SB, got shitty Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night. I find that works the best. Another rule to live by...... Never talk about cars or bikes at the after party, fake tits, race riots and your leaky roof are fair game however. A good buddy of mine was telling me how a guy he works with rolled a crane.... great fucking story. Oh yea and why are all the navies so damn up tight? Is it the notebook or the pen on a string? Last but not least, I have to admit it on the internet.... I'm an Anders fanbois |
Sean Gallagher Mod Moderator Location: Santa Ana, CA. Join Date: 06/16/2011 Age: Ancient Posts: 70 Rally Car: Ford Raptor |
Out of this dumpster fire Infallible Moderator Join Date: 08/15/2010 Posts: 1,236 |
I actually know what that graph is! |
Banned Senior Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
Certainly can't convince you one way or another, its the same old same old debate that has been rehashed here ad nauseum. Which as I said, I'm fine with. Mental masturbation is great, and I'm not saying I have the depth of experience in organizing events that you do Anders. Once again, to write off someone's opinion simply because they don't have the experience you do, eh, that's someone elses problem. For people to assume their experience somehow trumps others, also meh, I see it all the time where that is a flat out ridiculous assumption to make. Just because they have the experience, certainly doesn't make them right (doesn't make them wrong either, I judge on actions and results). I'd like to see all of your documentation to back up that what you are doing is "right" (which is exactly what you are asking me for). Beyond that, you've been organizing for 10 years? Great. Getting back to recce, what does that have to do with the competitor experience or reasoning for recce? What does your organizer experience have to do with the COSTS the competitors have (a small increase in entry fees, unless you want to tell me that recce will cut entry fees by $200) or their experience of recce? From my viewpoint, your experience in regards to recce as an organizer means very little from a competitors point of view and what it costs them. Also, with 1/10th the population and less population density in general, our events are doing well enough to typically break even and consistantly run. In (2011?), I think one of the events came pretty close to hitting the maximum number of cars allowed. While I'd love to show you the data specifically, I'm a bit busy/preoccupied (yes, I am debating in between working a 16 hour day up north, typing this on my Samsung when I get lulls). Case in point, we had people with a WEALTH of knowledge come up with the CARS rules. That didn't turn out well. I guess you got me though (arguing semantics again, focusing on a point that has little to do with anything), maybe it isn't ageism. Is experience-ism such a thing? Maybe if you equate that all experience is equal. You basically have nit-picked my argument apart and want hard solid data on what I claim, and yet in a very hypocritical fashion, you do the same thing in your own posts Anders (and then talk down to me trying to explain away how because you are older somehow means anything at all when it comes to knowledge). That's not to say you aren't a knowledgable person, it is clear that you are, but to act insufferably right... again, the argument writes itself. |
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