John, if it helps try to read my posts like we are sitting at a table in a coffee shop or quiet pub "talking" not yelling or getting excited and jumping up on tables. An idea or viewpoint is not self righteous or for that matter set in stone. Real conversatoin allows for someone to accept different thoughts and even change viewpoints.

I think that it is an adversion. If I was to use OTR as an example. Out of 78 entries, Maybe 20 had the opportunity to do recce a day earlyer than the rest of us commoners. Typically on a Recce day -even with 30 cars- it can get pretty hectic and you pass/get passed all day long. A few weeks ago we counted ~10 cars in TOTAL that we were coming across throughout the day. I would venture to guess close to 50% of the teams did not do Recce. Granted most of the cars that did a yard sale down a stage were teams that did Recce. But the stage roads at OTR gave teams confidence to push due to its relativly smooth roads and little dust. Allot of the big offs were cars finding how easy it is to run out of tallent, and subsequently road in the process. Maybe if it was their own notes it would have been a little less work for sweep?

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

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Morison

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stgallagher
Things didn't work well in Oregon a few weeks ago with a Shit Load of big crashes.

Don't make the mistake of confusing Jemba with time (really) for one pass as being the same as two pass, make your own notes, recce.

The Jemba notes at Oregon were frustratingly inconsistent in a couple of areas.

Go back to a Route Book only Blind Rally.
When I was in England and Ireland a few years ago and went to a few events, 98% of the competitors ran on bought prepared notes with no Recce because of work commitments, lack of time/money for extra days off, and had no problem finishing.
For the most part, no one from North America will run in "The Show" overseas. Make things easy for the Average Competitor.
Wake Up and Smell It.

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2WD...Less Traction More Action!

Seems like first and second passes on stages now are closer time wise than in the old days. That is just an unfounded hunch. That would indicate a faster first pass to me. I also think we're losing more cars due to offs or breakage , maybe that is a Jemba thing. I don't see it being any safer as touted by some. I do see it as a drain on resources for both organizer and competitors . If I ran again I couldn't say whether I would do the recce thing or not. Between Ron Barkers route book and the way our stages are arrowed I'd be more than comfortable running 'blind'.

I'm not threatening anyone, there will be a sign up sheet and declaration of policy before recce. No signe, no recce, no problem. Recce and violate the terms of the agreement and it won't be fun for any of us. Now a threat would be more along the lines making someone listen to JVL explain the Russo-Persian war of 1804 or you'll get a visit from Merilee in her black leathers and bull whip. That would at least be a little fun....

it's a multicolored riding crop thankyouverymuch

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heymagic
Between Ron Barkers route book and the way our stages are arrowed I'd be more than comfortable running 'blind'.

I'm one of the few rally drivers who has run blind recently.

I did it on a motorcycle at RWV.

I had two days of fun, a few excursions due to my low level of riding skill, and overall, lots of good times. I skipped recce. When I didn't know what the corner did.... I slowed down.

The good news is I was awarded just as much prize money as I would have received if I had done recce and used notes!

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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zerodegreec
John, if it helps try to read my posts like we are sitting at a table in a coffee shop or quiet pub "talking" not yelling or getting excited and jumping up on tables. An idea or viewpoint is not self righteous or for that matter set in stone. Real conversatoin allows for someone to accept different thoughts and even change viewpoints.

Ooooooh . Really? I didn't think of that.---since I guess I never read the founding statement of this forum founded in my driveway where we said just that thing.....

Wait! I got it! Your posts should be read like we're at a pub having a pint......

How should I read this PM from you?

I read it as a insanely stupid ranting of a possibly drunk and/or very stupid person, fully aware I might be mistaken

---which you can see in my response to your viscous accusation of "Defaming and Slandering Canada", I'm nothing short of flummoxed.:

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Default Re: what slander?

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Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham
seriouly have no idea what you're on about.
wanna try actual talking? gimme a call. i haz ciggies, battery's charged.
phone number is there, gimme a call.
really,

The slander I am referring to -also known as Defamation:

Definition: --is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image.

Terms like "Canajian" cannot be taken as anything BUT slander.
Its uncalled-for and not accepted in civilized conversations between Adults. As I have stated in previous posts about your comments, I have respect for your viewpoints -at times- and feel that you do have insight that is logical and worth reading.
Unfortunately your continuous personal attacks would not be allowed in my daughters kindergarten class, let alone in a forum containing conversations between adults.

If you can manage to refrain from your defamation of my country, act as a civil well adjusted individual in regards to the way you treat others -regardless if you agree with their viewpoints- I will pick up the phone and we can talk all evening.

Best regards
Bryan Lord

That doesn't seem much like a conversation, friend. Seems to be very aggressive accusations and virtually every line a demand----


It seems like yet another Calgary cowboy telling somebody stuff they already know and lecturing somebody, accusing somebody of some pretty vile and disgusting shit, demanding that they speak in some way that they have decided is the only acceptable way--totally in an error the fucker refuses to discuss...

Seems like an it's a habit of a cultural thing in your narrow little area...

However...........

And it occurred to me reading the endless repeated claims that "MORE" nervous novices miraculously were finishing their first events than (at some unspecified time previously) before", thinking about your angry--and misplaced accusations,
thinking about the hugely inflated ego of Adam V and his instant readiness to call people I know to be nice guys assholes cause he's too quick to read with any care---and then think it's OK to just say "Oh like whatever, sorry"..... 3 for 3 guys immersed in a sense of superiority.....based on ???????

Could it be that the alleged increase of people finishing might be because there is a generally inflated sense of certainty and "importance" in that area up there that is widespread??

.(.. It certainly seeeeeeeeeeeeeemed that way a long time ago when I was there, because there was far too common that people were just plain bullshitting to the point of lying constantly and excessively---by that I mean to anybody in the trade it is absurd (to the point of insulting) to claim the Datsun L-20B idling like a baby has "been dyno-ed at 240 hp" when it's slower than shit...
Very common then, seems to have gotten worse now).

Maybe Morisons' reports of novices EDIT: NOT FINISHING EVER according to some people who remain nameless at their first events up there stems from the same culture that has inflated Adam's and Kieth's and you sense of CERTAINTY and correctness....ya know?
Young men are historically cocky.

Cause down here, it's not so common.. In fact I often am puzzled by the lack of attack in beginners...

In some cultures where they are insulated from the consequences of excess cockiness, the unfortunate younger---or inexperienced of any age---the eventual reckoning is sometimes dramatic....

EDIT Whatever the reasons it is being suggested that first timers will not do whatever it was causing them to DNF because they have done 2 pass recce and wrote their own notes.... That is an assertion and an extremely spurious one. There could be other reasons not explored or suggested.. (More people spending way more money to prepare more expensive cars fearing for their investments might be one--and one I have seen and been told).

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I think that it is an adversion. If I was to use OTR as an example. Out of 78 entries, Maybe 20 had the opportunity to do recce a day earlyer than the rest of us commoners. Typically on a Recce day -even with 30 cars- it can get pretty hectic and you pass/get passed all day long. A few weeks ago we counted ~10 cars in TOTAL that we were coming across throughout the day. I would venture to guess close to 50% of the teams did not do Recce. Granted most of the cars that did a yard sale down a stage were teams that did Recce. But the stage roads at OTR gave teams confidence to push due to its relativly smooth roads and little dust. Allot of the big offs were cars finding how easy it is to run out of tallent, and subsequently road in the process. Maybe if it was their own notes it would have been a little less work for sweep?

All happy rally teams are all alike
All unhappy rally teams are all unhappy in their own ways..._{apologies to N Tolstoy}

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 01:07PM by john vanlandingham.

Hey. Brian. I don't have 'an aversion to recce'. I have an aversion to losing events. If assholes speeding on recce are right now making us lose stages, and we have drivers perfectly happy to pay the fine for beng an asshole on recce, then I'd rather cancel recce than cancel the rally. Get it?

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

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Jay
If assholes speeding on recce are right now making us lose stages, and we have drivers perfectly happy to pay the fine for beng an asshole on recce, then I'd rather cancel recce than cancel the rally. Get it?

I think there is something of a regional perspective problem here.

In Western Canada, if we held an event that didn't offer recce, we would probably have trouble getting enough entries to make the event viable. It depends - somewhat - on if quality notes were available or if it were a 'blind' rally run on just a routebook.

I seriously doubt a blind event would be viable in Western Canada.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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john vanlandingham
Maybe Morisons' reports of novices flying off the roads right and left at their first events up there stems from the same culture that has inflated Adam's and Kieth's and you sense of CERTAINTY and correctness....ya know? Young men are historically cocky.
Cause down here, it's not so common.. In fact I often am puzzled by the lack of attack in beginners...

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John, you've been behaving so well lately and now you just return to your old habits of misrepresenting what's been said and reading between the lines for messages that aren't there.

Firstly, I simply said I was told that virtually every first timer DNFed in the past (pre 2003) but I never said it was because they flew off the road. The reality is I don't know why the dnfs happened and it could have just as easily been from mechanical or prep issues. OK, this is a recce disussion so I can see why you'd assume I was suggesting crashes vs. no crashes but it can't ever be that simple.

I also openly admitted that this was a look at the microcosm in my back yard where we went to two-pass recce a decade ago. In that time we've seen more newbies finish events and get seat time, increased entry levels and fewer per-capita offs. Are the big offs getting bigger? I'm don't really know but I would expect they are.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Jay
Hey. Brian. I don't have 'an aversion to recce'. I have an aversion to losing events. If assholes speeding on recce are right now making us lose stages, and we have drivers perfectly happy to pay the fine for beng an asshole on recce, then I'd rather cancel recce than cancel the rally. Get it?

Seemed simple enough first time around, wonder what's hard to figure out?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I have been the Recce Coordinator at Olympus and now Nameless because I wanted recce when I was primarily a competitor and I would like it to be there should I ever start co-driving again. I thought about what I wanted as a competitor and put in my own time and money to make it happen.

Last year at Olympus, because of the fire risk and odd hours that we could access the roads, all of my recce marshals were assigned to monitoring gates instead of patrolling the stages. That impacted our ability to catch situations like the Taylor Towne quarry speeding.

I have seen lots of stupid stunts pulled on transits. In my opinion, recce just increases the opportunity for teams to be observed doing something stupid, not the likelihood that they will do something stupid.

One problem is that people don't like being the 'bad guy'. I got enough crap for the penalty imposed as a result of my O control at Olympus, I don't blame them. I stopped taking my radar gun to events after that. Maybe the demonstrated risk of losing stage road because of bad behavior will encourage more people to be the 'bad guy' and report bad behavior.

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2013 02:30PM by tipo158.

I solve this problem of speeding on recce by always borrowing my co-driver's nicer than mine car I then pay extra attention to not smashing it up or speeding.

Although poor Angela's Oldsmobile at TP, that thing took a beating.

If people are flagrantly flouting speeding in quiet zones and stage areas during recce, then get a rule made to exclude them. I won't cry about it. But make sure it's A) deliberate; and a lot over. We have these rules today I'm fairly certain. Usually any speeding results in an additional fine I think and talking with the rally leadership. If they just can't go the final step, then make it more severe.

fuck recce. With ron barker tulips my life is complete.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

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Tom B
fuck recce. With ron barker tulips my life is complete.

Eloquently put, Tom!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison

I seriously doubt a blind event would be viable in Western Canada.

Really? What a bunch of pussies. I did plenty of rallies in Western Canada back in the days before recce and pace notes. It seemed to be viable back then. What changed?