Anders Green Infallible Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Yep. I have nothing against recce. At my own event (RTN) I had open multi-pass recce for years since, oh, 2005 or something? Before it was common anywhere in the States. BUT when recce becomes a _must_ item (as it appears to be in NW Canada, at least from the discussion in this thread) for ALL rallies, this will become a problem for the sport. You can't ratchet up and up and up and still have a wide base. You're left with just the people who can afford everything. And we already have that problem. Some events with recce, some without. Some events with chocolate and sprinkles, some vanilla. Vanilla ice cream is still DELICIOUS ice cream. 
Anders Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
 John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Josh Wimpey Elite Moderator Location: VA Join Date: 12/27/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 649 Rally Car: Sneak the Golf |
John Lane Senior Moderator Location: Lynden Washington Join Date: 01/14/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 725 Rally Car: The Fire Breathing Monster |
So if your car is sooooo goddamned noisy that it will cause a problem..... Don't be a shithead and get the rest of us kicked out of the forest for your not wanting to install a muffler that may add all of ten pounds to the car!!! JohnLane Overkill is consistently more fun |
. The 5 under rule is fine, as long as it was stipulated in the routebook as being such (we've had these on dusty transits that run right by farmer's houses).
Banned Godlike Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
You guys are ridiculous. My car falls within the rules specified, it's not like it's a freikin' straight piped ported rotory  It's perfectly fine through quiet sections, having saw it done so before I bought it. My point was, if somebody came up to me and told me (if I was obeying a quiet zone, which usually involves a speed decrease as well) that I was too loud, I'd tell them to show me some proof. Their "ears" don't count. Again, it'd be different if I was driving like a maniac through a quiet zone/sensitive area, that would be showing a complete disregard for the GCR's which certainly doesn't require anything beyond a visual indication, but you'd be breaking so many rules beyond just noise...
Bunch of crotchety old bastards on here. Only shithead I see is the one taking things out of context and ass-uming things Hell, my first piece of advice to Gene is that it's a great idea what he is doing. He just needs to follow through or he'll make his competitors more complacent/apathetic.
Edit- And also, the only reason I even typed that response is because I respect (most) of you guys' opinions/thoughts/ideas. I'd much rather not type a response if dealing with people I care less about. 
Also, as for recce "ratcheting up costs". I don't buy it. Recce typically costs a competitor ~$100 in fuel, and if you are that cost conscious that it is an issue, $50/night at a hotel is the most you'll spend as you'll be sharing with other crew/your codriver. And of course, you aren't "forced" to recce, considering some people think blind rallies are so great, well there ya go, have at 'er. Now, on the time side of things, I guess you could argue its an extra day, buuuuuuuuuuuttttttt... the only people I know of that would not use the extra day to travel would be the ones under 2 hours away. I am 4 hours from where rallies in Alberta usually take place at. I'd rather spend an extra $50 on a hotel room then get up the morning of the rally and drive 4 hours starting at 4:00am (or earlier). The host hotel is far enough away from Calgary (45minutes) that plenty of Calgary folk stay there during races. If you say it from the perspective of "time taken off", there just isn't a suitable argument for this. Having to take the "weekend" to race is pretty typical in any racing, especially when you have to travel. Just as there is a minimum buy-in to rally, there is definitely a minimum "time buy-in" to rally. If you can't "afford" to take a weekend to rally (which doesn't even necessarily mean recce, it also means prep time and travel time), then rally might not be for you, same with if you can't afford to plunk down $10k into a car that you might ball up in the first corner. The only reasonable argument is organizer resources. Keith can comment on this in regards to how much he (and other organizers) are affected by this. I would "assume" the biggest issue in that regard is simply getting volunteers to man the starts of the stage. Edit Edit- Anders, we've had recce since (before?) I started volunteering IIRC (when I was 16, 8 years ago, in 2005). After the dip of the recession, we've had some gangbuster years for attendance. Recce doesn't affect our participation, and considering we already have something like 4+ new competitors this year, it certainly isn't hurting us. Oh, and can anyone confirm if the BTRDA series in Britain has 2pass recce? It looks like their notes are not just organizer supplied, but I liken the WCRC to being our watered down "Western Canada" equivalent. If they can have recce, what so special about them? Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 06:02AM by HiTempguy. |
Anders Green Infallible Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
You don't have to, but many very experienced racers do. How would you NOT argue that it's an extra day, when it's an actual extra day? (Yes, I'm aware that some smaller rallies in Canada do recce in the morning and then rally in the afternoon.) An extra day has to include that you lose your wages from not working that day, or equivalently, use up your vacation from not being there. Then your experience is atypical. While I don't have any numbers for Canada, in the US the average tow distance for every racer at each rally is around 412 miles. This boils down to you saying "recce doesn't take extra time or money, but if it did, then you just can't afford to rally". If you think there's anything simple about getting volunteers... please get me some.
You're making a very strong statement backed up only by your own obvservations, without any statistical backing and without comparison to other regions, which means it's a pretty limited view. I can only suggest that it's a big world and there's lots to learn and many places have different results. How many have you lost this year? Without knowing that, I don't know that you can say with certainty that any particular thing is or isn't hurting you. The UK is 200 miles from coast to coast. Assuming a simple random distribution of ralliers and of rallies, and of high densities of both, the average drive to rallies might be just one hour, instead of eight. That would change everything about our sport. Cheers, Anders Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
Aaron Gibson Mod Moderator Location: South Burlington, VT Join Date: 08/27/2012 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 83 Rally Car: Cars are lame, I have a motorcycle |
John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Brian j Dyer Senior Moderator Location: southern maine Join Date: 05/01/2009 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 381 Rally Car: 04 Rocky Mountain MTB... |
Jeff Reamer Senior Moderator Location: Marlette, Michigan Join Date: 08/14/2010 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 489 Rally Car: Subaru |
Don Kennedy Ultra Moderator Location: Reading, PA Join Date: 10/05/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 227 Rally Car: Impreza |
Bingo. Guess who had the same "results" a couple of months ago at Pierce? You drive to how big your wallet is and/or how much time you might want to spend in the garage or hospital. Don Kennedy |
Banned Mod Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
FWIW, Adam doesn't stick out as a 'problem child' on recce or on transits during an event. (on stage or on road trips... whole other story)
Volunteers for recce isn't usually a big problem as long as you accept that you won't have every start and finish staffed. Put people in the sensitive areas and let the teams deal with it. We've had our 'banner' crews out ahead of recce getting the start and finish signs in place before the teams get there and filling in the rest of the tape during the day. They also double well as judges of fact for any asshattery going on. Yes, organisers have to work on recce schedules and sort out how much time is needed and where the volunteers are needed and so-on... but compared to the rest of the event that's child's play. One of the big things about recce is that the events do have to change a bit if you want to keep costs and time commitment in line. In Alberta we've usually rallied on Sundays for a range of reasons (hunting season and a previous ban on hunting on Sundays being one of them) so Recce on Saturday typically meant not much of a change for most of the competitors at our events. (even today we don't get a lot of cars from BC.) BC events typically run on the Saturday, so adding recce meant running recce on the Friday, but usually starting after noon. As a competitor I hate doing two pass recce on a stage we only run once. Even from a organizer's perspective - if I'm setting up a stage and putting all those resources in place, why not run it twice for the extra mileage? (Everyone will have their reasons) We started with 2 pass recce at our events in 2004. IIRC Bighorn resisted recce, but ended up going away for other reasons. (I seem to recall that 2004 was organiser notes done by Pat Richard but I can't recall if 2005 was organiser notes or 2 pass recce, I do remember blowing up my engine as a course car) There will always be a 'flow through' of competitors with a core of people with a (relatively) long term involvement and a certain number who are only in the sport for a short time. We do a horrible job of tracking the people coming to or leaving the sport but the reasons vary greatly. There is a signature on one of the forums that reads something like 'this is rally, it isn't supposed to be easy.' That's probably the most common reason for people leaving the sport... it ain't easy. Here are some of the reasons I've seen people leave rally that I would rank higher than the cost of recce, in no particular order. - Topspecitis. Where someone thinks they need to spend massive money on a 'full spec' car. - Can't find a regular co-driver. I've seen someone with the funding and means to run a serious program not enter events because they can't get a co-driver. - Unrealistic expectations not being fulfilled. Probably one of the most common is the guy that comes out knowing he'll blow everyone out of the water and be the next Antoine L'Estage right out of the gate - but isn't. (often seen in combination with topspecitis.) - The truth of consequences. Either a big off of their own, or a friend's, makes them realize that serious injuries, possibly with life-long effects, are possible and they decide the risk isn't worth the reward. - Force Majeur. Some can't deal with the inherent 'unfairness' of the sport. Sometimes things happen in rally that are unavoidable, and not your fault and sometimes these things will cost you dearly. At the end of the day there are many factors that lead to 'success' of events and series. Looking at the stats: In the 4th year before the WCRC adopted recce - 2 events, average of 10 entries. In the year before adopting recce - 6 events, average of 15.8 entries In the year of adopting recce - 6 events, average of 21 entries In the 4th year after adopting recce - 5 events, average of 21.6 entries Last year, 8 years after adopting recce - 5 events, average of 21.8 entries. As I say, recce is only one factor, but it sure doesn't seem to have hurt us. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 12:01PM by Morison. |
Grant Hughes Senior Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I did an exact cost estimate for doing recce for Rally Colorado 2008. It was within dollars of $250 added cost, not including the extra vacation day, which at 80k per year I was making at the time, was worth $300. I still took 1st place in my class both days. (Only one naturally.)
Recce is fine. I think it's fun to write pace notes, especially on hill climbs. However, recce required would reduce the number of events that the lower 50-75% of competitors will do. It will also potentially lead to an earlier exit for the upper percentages. While $100 may not seem like much to some people, to us millionaires, that's alot of money. That was said to me by a 95 year old man with net worth over 100 mil. How many "top" guys come in, blow a big load trying to "make" it, then realize their trust fund has one less digit than before, and they bow out. Or realize their business is suffering. I'm sure we've all heard stories about the CEO driver making his codriver drive while he made business calls on transits? Think he'd want to spend an extra day in a car? Not if he's a smart CEO. Grant Hughes |
John Vanlandingham Ultra Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
try tracking the cost of oil per barrel in the last 14 years and overlay your entries on a graph.
Or track the number of pirates worldwide and average global temp.. 
Could be proof! John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Banned Super Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
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