Who are the people that want to do recce?

I'll add the old saw..familiarity breeds contempt..or something to that effect. I can see multiple passes possibly causing more wrecks as people either push the envelope trying to better the previous time or getting bored with the repetition. My first race drivers school had me bored to tears during the 3rd 30 minute track set.

The road damage can really become evident in multiple passes. I can see about 3 runs per stage as being optimum but have no hard evidence to support that.

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heymagic
The road damage can really become evident in multiple passes. I can see about 3 runs per stage as being optimum but have no hard evidence to support that.

The informal position from CARS is 'unique stage mileage' should only be used twice during an event - but that could be twice in each direction on a given road.
I fully agree that - generally speaking - the third pass on a given stage direction is usually getting to be too much. Depends a bit on the road though. You could probably run brockway all day long and not get complaints.

---

First Rally: 2001
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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

For those who hate doing recce. Why not just skip recce? No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it.

I rather enjoy recce. It's a challenge for me to fine tune notes and focus on ways of improving, as well as enjoying time with my best friend who is my co-driver. Sometimes it's boring, sometimes it's exciting (100AW this year was more intense than the rally itself).

When it comes to an event I want to do well in, such as my local one, I'll take the time to do recce. If I was going to Ojibwe this year (won't be due to budget) or STPR. I wouldn't take the time to do recce since I don't think it would benifit me as much as doing it at 100AW where I already know the roads fairly well, thus know where its beneficital to note things differently.

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NoCoast
From original list, I think #1 and #2 are the only groups I see actually owning rally cars

I know of a lot of people who are not wealthy that own a rally car. (me included)

As for recce, sometimes I'll do it, sometimes not. Depends on the event and how much vacation time I have available.

Example: Nemadji Trail had recce last year for the first time. I liked doing it in the morning. I still had the same amount of fun vs. the previous years of not doing recce.

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heymagic
The road damage can really become evident in multiple passes. I can see about 3 runs per stage as being optimum but have no hard evidence to support that.

Depends upon the event. Up north, like Ojibwe or Nemadji, the road can get torn up with multiple passes (Ojibwe was really bad after a few passes last year with 30 cars). Other events like 100 Acre Wood, are perfectly fine with multiple passes and 60+ cars. Some of the stage roads are so hard packed with gravel that you could run 2 or 3 passes over it and you'd never think a rally was run.

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Morison

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heymagic
The road damage can really become evident in multiple passes. I can see about 3 runs per stage as being optimum but have no hard evidence to support that.

The informal position from CARS is 'unique stage mileage' should only be used twice during an event - but that could be twice in each direction on a given road.
I fully agree that - generally speaking - the third pass on a given stage direction is usually getting to be too much. Depends a bit on the road though. You could probably run brockway all day long and not get complaints.

Yeah, at black river stages we run jayville? i believe twice forward and backwards, i'm sure anders will scold me if i'm wrong, but by the 3rd and especially 4th pass there's some sections that have huge ruts. Let go of the wheel and push the pedal down!!

Yeah, the bottom 3/4 mile or so gets rutted.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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NoCoast

Most rallyists want recce. assertion, show us serious proof



With our current system, very few are going to be able to do more than 1-3 events per year. Anders stats lend some backing to that statement. There will be outliers and tails on every debate. But the 1-3 per year are going to be composed mostly of middle to upper middle class wage workers. OK

(uh oh, this is where it starts getting sketchier)
Myself and a most others I have talked to about recce have at one time or another made a statement along the line of, "If I'm going to make all this effort, I will look to events that also offer recce. It is part of rallying and I want to do it/experience it."

It IS apart of rally.. In most places indeed everywhere aside from Italy, the old East Bloc (which in many respects are culturally descended from the old Roman Empire), France, Spain, it is a relatively NEW part of rally..

But also parts of rally are LONG DISTANCES, harder stages, mixed surfaces like both asphalt and loose or asphalt and snow..
limited service time,
a myriad of different timing and scheduling formats: Traditional Monte Carlo with the departure points all across Europe from Moscow to Trondheim to Lisbon, traditional Safari, or Spa-Sofia-Liege 6600km every minute counts and one rest the whole way, RAC, Swedish, Thousand Lakes all ROUTE BOOK ONLY,

There are LOTS of things that are 'a part of rally".
The struggle is always with the small mined, the ignorant, the petty who believe uniformity is happiness.

Were all these guys saying (and presumably believing) "recce is a part of rally" aware of all the variety of rallies before they stumbled into it?

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Keep in mind here that many of these people are in Colorado where we can be picky due to large distances to all rallies. In denser regions I would expect similar feelings though more are likely to do both recce and non-recce events since towing expense is lessened.
Here is where it gets sticky. Recce adds to event expense and impact on community. It increases negative impacts in communities, it increases volunteer time, it increases organizational duties, in increases organizational expense, and it increases competitors expense and time.
Recce will reduce the number of events a competitor enters per year. depends
Recce will impact some organizers leading to a reduction in unique stage miles. assertion...citation needed
Recce will reduce the number of car destroying incidents. ---highly debatable assertion
Recce will lead to an increase of the number of years a competitor stays active.--another assertion that needs some back up

Again, this is a generalization, but I believe the logic to be sound.

Grant, the notes were to show what you have is a lot of assertions, but so solly, no rogics...

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So, what is the solution???

Thrower is no "the" solution,,, And that's the point the little whiney punks and complainer who can't read miss.

MANY with more experience are sayin ₁"Meh, I guess, whatever.
If an event ghas it and everything clicks, I guess.
₂If not meh..
₃And if it adds undue burden or ass-wipes can't behave and it threatens an event...then fuckit I can live without"

Looks like flexible "ready for anything" attitudes.. To me that's the attitude of rally guys..

The I want it like THIS and I'll go home if I don't get EVERYTHING I want is the consumerist mindset that really we would do well to be rid of.

The solutions are all variable as to place and time..

NO ONE WAY.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

Recce will reduce the number of events a competitor enters per year. depends
Recce will impact some organizers leading to a reduction in unique stage miles. assertion...citation needed
Recce will reduce the number of car destroying incidents. ---highly debatable assertion
Recce will lead to an increase of the number of years a competitor stays active.--another assertion that needs some back up

First, John H - I meant from the list of 5 created above. Majority of rallyists I know are simply hard working middle to middle upper class people. Mix of desk jockey and otherwise.

John V.
If each rally takes more time and more money for a competitor, this will lead to the average getting reduced as there will be some competitors who's event counts is directly proportional to income and available time.
On the organizer perspective, Nameless has already demonstrated this, though they are attempting to replace a road, they have lost one due to recce. They did not have the manpower to police the full course during recce. Some organizers may say, we will not use this road or we will reduce unique mileage to reduce the burden on our policing (and needed volunteers for actual event). Only takes ONE organizer to make this deduction to reduce the average.

The final two are based on evidence from Canada, which I'm pretty sure Keith has shared in past showing reduction in accidents for novice and rookie drivers since the requirement of recce in that championship. The less cars get wrecked, the longer competitors will be active, thus if recce reduces wrecks, it will lead to longer participation.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast

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john vanlandingham

Recce will reduce the number of events a competitor enters per year. depends
Recce will impact some organizers leading to a reduction in unique stage miles. assertion...citation needed
Recce will reduce the number of car destroying incidents. ---highly debatable assertion
Recce will lead to an increase of the number of years a competitor stays active.--another assertion that needs some back up

First, John H - I meant from the list of 5 created above. Majority of rallyists I know are simply hard working middle to middle upper class people. Mix of desk jockey and otherwise.

John V.
If each rally takes more time and more money for a competitor, this will lead to the average getting reduced as there will be some competitors who's event counts is directly proportional to income and available time.
On the organizer perspective, Nameless has already demonstrated this, though they are attempting to replace a road, they have lost one due to recce. They did not have the manpower to police the full course during recce. Some organizers may say, we will not use this road or we will reduce unique mileage to reduce the burden on our policing (and needed volunteers for actual event). Only takes ONE organizer to make this deduction to reduce the average.

The final two are based on evidence from Canada, which I'm pretty sure Keith has shared in past showing reduction in accidents for novice and rookie drivers since the requirement of recce in that championship. The less cars get wrecked, the longer competitors will be active, thus if recce reduces wrecks, it will lead to longer participation.

OK Ok.
Except Keith has only asserted, claimed that the feeling is that increased recce IS THE CAUSE of reduced serious crashes.

Could be more expensive cars, newbs with more money than experience but some brains who are rightfully scared of thrashing "their investment".
Could be world's average temp as a fuction of pirates in the world. It could be.

One guy in some desolate, isolated place with events with barely 15-20 cars claiming anything is not proof of anything...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I'm self employed as a plumber, which means I can be flexible unless an emergency comes up. Dual income, no kids, very small house nut and no debt.

I've often wondered of recce actually dulled the senses a bit? I think being able to read terrain, choosing proper line selection and rolling with the punches was a better method. Enduro is really a rally in the woods, with more complex time keeping (tsd style) without a navie. The terrain is also very technical and in all types of weather. Reminds me of the old rally days when stamina and strategy was the name of the game, not a wallet fueled drag race through the woods.

Just a dumb bike guys opinion

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crankshaft
I'm self employed as a plumber, which means I can be flexible unless an emergency comes up. Dual income, no kids, very small house nut and no debt.

I've often wondered of recce actually dulled the senses a bit? I think being able to read terrain, choosing proper line selection and rolling with the punches was a better method. Enduro is really a rally in the woods, with more complex time keeping (tsd style) without a navie. The terrain is also very technical and in all types of weather. Reminds me of the old rally days when stamina and strategy was the name of the game, not a wallet fueled drag race through the woods.

Just a dumb bike guys opinion

Yeah well you have the spirit of an enduro guy, not the pampered, sitting on yer but all cozy and relatively warm and easy job of sitting in a car.. I told you I got interested in doing rallies after 20 years of being outside in rain and snow and wallowing in mud for 6-8 hours while soaked--and staying on time. I thought zooming around on nice smooth logging roads from dusk till dawn sound like a nice leisure activity after 20 years of hard work slamming my body into trees and rocks and stumps and mud...
There was definately an interesting challenge to it then. It tested me.

Now the test is in the engineering departments at one or two MFGs, and in board rooms for some or whining at mommy and daddy for others to cough up lotsa OPM; other people's money.. Then buying a car that does nearly everything for you and yet people need MORE detailed info now?

Odd thing is in all the claims of the NEED for recce-- Look at the average speed of the middle 50% of the entrants anywhere, but maybe look at Slo-drift..
Are people serious when they claim they need precise instructions on each kink and twist in the road to drive maybe 42-43mph on some wide road?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Maybe lets slow down with the name calling. People have different likes and dislikes, I hate the term whiney and such. it restricts open conversation and idea sharing. When communication slows so does progress.


So what is better? Recce or good notes? How much of a difference between them for the average guy?

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Racinkid13
I had to sell a kidney and a testicle to provide for the entry fee.

Me too. Well, not MY kidney(s) or testicle(s); but still......

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Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

Here are some of my related, yet likely unimportant thoughts.

1. Regarding local knowledge, I would have to say that it CAN help but that is still relative to the driver's abilities. For Idaho, outside of that 90 day no drive window, i camp in that area frequently and just go for drives to the ghost towns etc. I know the roads photographically in my head. Helps a lot codriving for that event because your never lost, and you know how to get places, etc etc. As far as being a driver is concerned, my personal skills aren't that great, but i would be comfortable doing a "rally solo" at Idaho just because ive essentially done "recce" over the last four years like 500 times.

2. For me, I just want to drive. Period. What i love about rally is the dynamics. Its edgey and difficult and frankly, i like it when the weather is shit, the roads are shit, and its all around arduous. Recce or not, i would still drive because its not like your the only one without if its not offered. You still have stage roads to drive. The codrive might be "bored" but whatever, enjoy the ride! I sure do when im in that seat.

3. As far as people who "would never attend an event if they don't offer recce". Well, its just a sour attitude to have. Rally is fun and in the US thats all you should expect out of it. Judge the rally on the quality of the roads or something more constructive. For how weak rallying is in this country you can't quite discount an event for something menial.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
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imnotcrazy
Need to stir things up some more, it's been too quiet lately.
IMHO, they must be primarily,
#1. People that own their own business therefore they have the capital and taking time off from work is a total non issue.
#2. They are wealthy (or daddy is).
#3. They are retired or for another reason don't work (wife is C level exec).
#4. They are part of the young generation that I frequently hear about that often just don't show up for work with no explanation/reason.
#5. They take all their vacation/sick time and spend no vacation time with family.
My $.02. I'm probably way off base but I want to hear how you think they manage it.

I'm in the #5 group. I wouldn't say that I don't get to spend other vacation time as I get 156 hours of vacation time a year. I run a work schedule of 9/9/9/9/8 one week and 9/9/9/9/off for the second week. I shift my Friday off to the rally, shift my 8 hour day to the Thursday before. Typically take the Wednesday off prior as well. So for every rally I only need to take 17 hours of leave. That would, in theory, allow me to run 9 full blown recce events a year.

I only drive 2-4 events a year, this year is an exception since I'm co-driving for Chris Greenhouse as well and helping out at events that Mary is co-driving for Erika Detota so I'm burning a lot of vacation time this year.