I'll echo everyone else's issues. Frankly recce is a pain in the ass, isn't very fun and is quite costly as far as time, effort, hotel, etc.

I'm a small business owner, and getting free time is actually harder vs when I was an employee with vacation time. My not being around impacts profitability.

If we don't like it, why do we still do it? If it is offered, we're going to participate in order to be competitive. Same for Jemba notes--if offered we'll certainly participate, but I'd prefer if we didn't have to. I suspect most people agree.

Quote
krisdahl
...if offered we'll certainly participate, but I'd prefer if we didn't have to. I suspect most people agree.

I think it depends on what people.
Every event in Canada requires teams to fill out a feedback form at the end of each event. Yes, we occasionally see comments from people saying they'd rather not have recce but those are definitely outlier comments.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

This is a great topic actually..

As an organizer for Magnum Opus our Clerk of the Course Bill Westrick and I decided to keep our regional event a no notes no recce event ( Tulip Only ). We were not sure how it was going to be received from the rallying public, Some of the younger drivers who have never run a blind rally said they wouldn't come to the event but did. We did not have ANY major offs and only one car ( If memory serves me ) with any body damage. I think there is a good basis for learning to rally a stage as you see it. Not as someone else painting a mental picture of whats to come.

A great example of this has actually been proven in another type of motor vehicle operation.

Canada has limited its snowmobile trail signage by a third of what they use to have and found that there were less accidents. Michigan last year changed as well and our accidents and fatalities went down on the trails from last year. What they have found is that too much information to the brain is a distraction. Previous markers had a corner warning and then chevrons all the way around a corner. It gave the rider a false sense of security . What it didn't tell you was if the corner was a 90 ? 45 ? .

One only has to look at the cell phone and texting while driving debate. Not sure what the exact answer is, But The proof we have seen by tulips only seems to have been a good choice. We are again running a tulip rally this year. Only one driver sent us an email saying he will not run a rally without notes. He is missing a fun less stressful race...

Tim

Do I understand that correctly? No Jemba and no recce to write your own notes?

How detailed are the tulips? What's the co-driver for?

Tim.

Quote
TronDD
Do I understand that correctly? No Jemba and no recce to write your own notes?

How detailed are the tulips? What's the co-driver for?

Tim.

Back in the olden days, nearly all the rallies in these here US of A United States were "blind." The co-driver made sure you were entering and leaving checkpoints on time, made sure the driver didn't get too homicidal, and used this crazy odometer to figure out the distances between instructions.

The one time I co-drove in a stage rally, that's what I did. It seemed like plenty of work to do. Trying to read detailed notes at 80 mph...no thanks, tried it on a shakedown stage once and I'd rather spin wrenches in service. I could be coerced into the right seat of a "blind" rally, but otherwise, nope.

That said, I can TOTALLY see why a driver would like to be able to have the information to get more speed...errr, be more safe on the stage.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Bill makes sure to put any gotchas in the tulips.. If there is a possibility of danger he makes every attempt to get it in the route book. The route is usually check before printing a few times then a third party review just before the event . Sometimes changes are made and given to the teams.

Same reason a co driver was needed way before any recce and notes.. Most are not familiar with the stages and transits. The tulips listed are for safety concerns. The driver needs to know where they are at . Cant do that solo, and then add transits into the mix and timing.. Why wouldn't you have a codriver in the car ?

Quote
TronDD
Do I understand that correctly? No Jemba and no recce to write your own notes?

How detailed are the tulips? What's the co-driver for?

Tim.

Is this really a serious question? What is the co-driver for?

Quote
heymagic

Quote
TronDD
Do I understand that correctly? No Jemba and no recce to write your own notes?

How detailed are the tulips? What's the co-driver for?

Tim.

Is this really a serious question? What is the co-driver for?

I thought it was for Ballast, and someone to get out and push when you ditched it......

---

Parfois, on fait pas semblant!

I am:
I know:
I am from:

Nobody.
Nothing.
Nowhere.

Quote
Creech

Quote
heymagic

Quote
TronDD
Do I understand that correctly? No Jemba and no recce to write your own notes?

How detailed are the tulips? What's the co-driver for?

Tim.

Is this really a serious question? What is the co-driver for?

I thought it was for Ballast, and someone to get out and push when you ditched it......

I thought you were supposed to hold the driver's beer...at STPR.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Well I got a look at the tulips for the practice stage at STPR, they are more detailed than transit tulips. So now I understand.

The serious part of my question was about the co-driver reading out "L2, no cut, blah blah", which, without Jemba, I didn't know what replaced it. I know the co-driver is worth more than just that (depending on how much abuse they'll take).

Tim.

Quote
Rally43

Canada has limited its snowmobile trail signage by a third of what they use to have and found that there were less accidents.

Maybe we were just drinking less on the trails that they were monitoring?

I'd like to see the article though, and see how they went about drawing the conclusion with the given data. Sounds like it would be an interesting article.

Tim,
So back in the day..no notes, no recce. A driver had to focus on the road immediately in front, largely action and reaction. The key is to anticipate and as some say learn to read the road. You know if you're going over a crest to the left the car will move to the right so you counter steer a bit early, before you land. Its a natural (for some) experience. Others 'save' the car every corner, also natural (or unnatural) for some and usually leads to spectacular stage times right before the spectacular off.

A good co-driver, before starting, read ahead in the route book, marked the perceived gotchas, exposures, cautions, weird intersections and maybe most importantly checked to see if all correct pages were in the book. on stage a good CD would keep the driver in check, faster, slower, calm jitters, watch gauges, watch behind, watch ahead and see the road from the other side of the car (very important with no notes). A good CD also marked the route as you went thru if there was a second running of the stage (either direction) noting features and especially the fast sections. That there is the trick, everyone marks the bad shit...great teams marked the fast stuff. Co-drivers keep you on schedule, watch the times, tracks your mileage thru the stage,watch the transits, keeps scores, lies to the other teams about your stage times . A good co-driver is worth an easy 50hp. A good co-driver who weighs less than 120lbs is worth a 100 hp...

My first overall win was with, and because of, a new co-driver (Kasey Qvale) in Canada. That win was soley because of the co-driver. I remember branches hitting both sides of the car and her screaming "it's a freeway, hit it!" To this day I think she was nucking futs but we caught and passed 6 cars that night and got into the finish literally 20 minutes ahead of second place. So that was strange roads, foreign country, night rally, no notes, no recce, new co-driver. Pretty memorable.

A bad co-driver checks you into MTC 10 minutes early and costs you a top 10 national finish... misses calls in the route book, doesn't notice the car that caught you, loses the lug nuts, gets sick, gets lost on transit and so on. While I've had co-drivers that ended up just being there I never felt a co-driver was ballast or not a critical part of the rally formula.

Gene is making me nostalgic for Doo Wops.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

My codriver during recce for STPR:

Names and faces hidden to protect the innocent!

Us doing recce at Prescott:


Lessons learned:

1. 25mph convoy recces that start at 7am and go to 4pm put rallyists faster to sleep than a bottle of nyquil.
2. Second, 300hp RWD cars on dirt roads = fun as shit especially when it's a rental.

sorry, thread was starting to get a lil' too serious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2013 11:12PM by blackboxrally.

Hi Alvin! Glad to see you check in here.

WTF happened at STPR?

You coming out west again any time soon?

---

Self-righteous douche canoe