Nice read about some Clubbies in OZ

Congrats on finding the freudian typo... completely unintended. Yes, Talk - not take.

Again we have common ground since I don't play along with wannabe elites either!

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

This new Keith is amusing to read on the internet, not at all like his typical self. Some people are happy building a car for three years (if it ever gets done, or if they buy parts that require constant fiddling with and shipping back and forth to actually get to work correctly under unknown schedules of when it'll be done). I'd rather race cars. Grant buying a piece of crap and having to fix it was his (poor) choice. Kevin buying a Volvo (that still isn't on stage btw) is another example. Me buying a built car for pennies on the dollar and going racing in only two months of actual work was my (good) choice. Randy Schuller buying a different Talon and basically going directly on stage for pennies on the dollar was a good choice. Etc. Etc. You can't realistically build a car for less than $10k (unless you go all used, which is hilarious when talking about the durability of mechanical moving parts that were only designed to last a certain finite time). You can certainly buy and REPREP many rally cars all day long for well under that.

I just bought a used rally car.

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Carl S
I just bought a used rally car.

start wif a hon and end wif a duh?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Yep, bringing it home on Sunday. it's pretty well set up, should be fun.

Quote
Carl S
Yep, bringing it home on Sunday. it's pretty well set up, should be fun.

Oh dear...

Piccies or it din't harpoon.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
HiTempguy
This new Keith is amusing to read on the internet, not at all like his typical self. Some people are happy building a car for three years (if it ever gets done, or if they buy parts that require constant fiddling with and shipping back and forth to actually get to work correctly under unknown schedules of when it'll be done). I'd rather race cars. Grant buying a piece of crap and having to fix it was his (poor) choice. Kevin buying a Volvo (that still isn't on stage btw) is another example. Me buying a built car for pennies on the dollar and going racing in only two months of actual work was my (good) choice. Randy Schuller buying a different Talon and basically going directly on stage for pennies on the dollar was a good choice. Etc. Etc. You can't realistically build a car for less than $10k (unless you go all used, which is hilarious when talking about the durability of mechanical moving parts that were only designed to last a certain finite time). You can certainly buy and REPREP many rally cars all day long for well under that.

I guess it all depends on the source of derived pleasure... I personally have a few motivations for doing rally and building my car.

I like to drive, and love the appeal of rally. I am hoping I am good enough at it to have a good time while not breaking too much stuff.

I LOVE building shit and fabrication. I love the challenge of the "impossible". I have come from the construction industry as well as a background in fine woodworking where I have done stuff that was "impossible", impractical or both. I KNOW I will have tons of fun building a car, I am not so deluded that I think it will be all fun... but to me, buying a large bolt on assembly, car etc. Takes some of that fun out of the equation, but I know that a certain amount of "buy" needs to happen to, as John puts it, to "keep the pecker up". However in my case, I want to balance that so that I derive ENJOYMENT out of the process of building.

Build also gives the opportunity of a payment plan. Can I afford to build a rally car over time taking a few thousand here and there? Yes. Will my wife allow me to do it? Yes. Could I take 15k and plop it down on a rally car? Technically yes, in good conscience, no. Life has competing priorities, and dropping it on a car at one time is not one of them. What about a loan? Fuck that shit, not the way we do things as a family. This is a HOBBY until proven that I am the best rally driver in the world and can make mega dollars as a drive /sarcasm. The most I likely could ever hope for is some really nice company that will pay for entrance fees or gas or something. The work that international athletes (I was involved in international competition in Bobsleigh) go through to get sponsorships is crazy. It was almost impossible to get them EVEN if you have results at an INTERNATIONAL level.

Based on the premise above about me liking fabrication, I don't WANT to buy because that would remove my enjoyment of the build, and then if I don't end up being good enough at rally to enjoy it, then what pleasure have I derived from the process? None. In fact I would be pissed that I spent X amount of dollars on something that I may or may not be able to sell. Also: it sound ridiculous, but fixing someone elses shit, even if it is the EXACT same task as building your own shit (wiring, suspension etc) is less enjoyable to me. Always has been. I avoided jobs like that in construction, it's the same shit here.

So I guess my point is pretty simple: For me, if at the end of the day I suck shit at driving, at least I had the fun of building something.

Conversely, if you don't enjoy building something, or don't have the skill, why would you build?
If you have no money and no skill, CARS are not for you... cars are money pits.

Different horses for courses in my opinion. Do what makes you happy. Be damned what everyone else thinks. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. (Anyone want any more idioms?? Grass is always greener, something about a tunnel etc.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 10:18AM by MattWatson.

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PeteNaz
(are tools part of car cost? i suppose they are and you can divy up the cost when you use it again haha)

I never include them, unless they are a tool that are one time use, never could be used for anything else and never sold.

I guess this comes from my business side... they are capital assets that you COULD sell and recoup some money. Ask my wire how many tools I have sold.... and I literally have tens of thousands in industrial woodworking and some metalworking machinery.

But really, that is just my self justification. I love tools.

Quote
MattWatson

I guess it all depends on the source of derived pleasure... I personally have a few motivations for doing rally and building my car.

I like building and wrenching too. However, I prefer RACING much more (which is what rallying is, it is racing). I've wrenched all my life.

I am saying this in the nicest way possible (and Keith has pointed this out before with many new people to rally) but you are doing rally bass-ackwards.

You really should rent a car for a one off gig to see if you like it or at least do a test day. To spend YEARS of time (and as you admitted, no small chunk of change) to build something you might not even use? Why? Why would you do that? Especially the Saab you have planned, rally is already a niche as it is, and now you have a vehicle that you will sell for pennies on the dollar that nobody will want (ok, there may be one or two people in Alberta that would want it, but probably can't afford it :p ).

Nothing is "impossible", impossible is doable, but it's based on the cheap, fast, quality triangle. At some point, the triangle gets so skewed that it becomes outside the realm of feasability.

And you could also do what you want payment-wise if you bought an already prepped car... SAVE the money in a bank account. There will be significant enough amounts of prep work to do on a USED rallycar that I don't see why there is no joy from doing so.

The "you" is being used as a general "you", not YOU specifically. And the fact is, there are few rallyists in North America, there are even fewer rallyists with the ability to do all their own fab work (or desire to). The path you describe doesn't make sense from a racing standpoint. From the point of view that racing is essentially secondary, it might.

When somebody says they want to rally, I instruct them on how to rally. Not how to fabricate and/or spend years (even only months) in the shop learning how to wrench/weld/build stuff with their bare hands

Quote
HiTempguy
To spend YEARS of time (and as you admitted, no small chunk of change) to build something you might not even use? Why? Why would you do that?

Ignoring the point of the saab, which has it's plusses and minuses, I do it because I want to, and I like it. I understand it doesn't appeal to you, and if I am doing rally ass backwards, frankly I don't really care. Might I end up as someone building a car and not finishing? Yep. Do I recognize that? Yes.

Quote
HiTempguy
And you could also do what you want payment-wise if you bought an already prepped car... SAVE the money in a bank account. There will be significant enough amounts of prep work to do on a USED rallycar that I don't see why there is no joy from doing so.

That is where I vehimently disagree with you. TECHNICALLY, yes I could do that. With my family dynamic and the way that married life works with a house and a car etc works. The TIME it would take to do something like that would be impractical. Water heater breaks, grab from that money... etc etc. I don't intend to be condescending, but for my life, it wouldn't work.

Quote
HiTempguy
The "you" is being used as a general "you", not YOU specifically. And the fact is, there are few rallyists in North America, there are even fewer rallyists with the ability to do all their own fab work (or desire to). The path you describe doesn't make sense from a racing standpoint. From the point of view that racing is essentially secondary, it might.

When somebody says they want to rally, I instruct them on how to rally. Not how to fabricate and/or spend years (even only months) in the shop learning how to wrench/weld/build stuff with their bare hands

Fair 'nuf, but I can only answer for me, so I was just sharing what I am looking to get out of that experiece. Maybe this doesn't mesh with what CARS or hard core ralliests are looking for, but as long as the grid (so to speak) is open to anyone, everyone will do it differently, for different reasons.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2013 11:03AM by MattWatson.

Quote
MattWatson
So I guess my point is pretty simple: For me, if at the end of the day I suck shit at driving, at least I had the fun of building something.

Right on Brotha!
Without a doubt, for some the building is as much of the attraction as the actual rallying is. (And for the record, my guess is the used SAAB I mentioned would be one of those 'basket case' cars. My thinking is based on the fact it was built as a first car and only run a couple of events)

The idea that you can spend slowly when building is also valid, but you also have to consider that you end up spending considerably more, in most cases.

Quote
MattWatson
Be damned what everyone else thinks.

This one is a bit of a problem since advice usually comes with some level of experience or observation attached to it. The last person I dealt with who 'ignored all the advice' was man enough to admit he had made a mistake as he bowed out of the sport...

I've seen many cases where people dove into their first builds and have decided to do something 'different' or 'better' only to find out later why it's not generally done that way. Buying, and running, a used car before you build your own is a great way to get a handle on what you would do differently.

There is a reality that, as long as you don't ball it up, you can generally resell a used car after a couple of events and get back most of your money. (Less event costs, obviously) It might take some time, and you won't always get all of your money back, but the loss on a car you build will be massive in comparison (as a rule, there will be exceptions.)

This is a moot point, really, since there aren't a lot of used cars kicking around these days.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
My guess is the used SAAB I mentioned would be one of those 'basket case' cars. My thinking is based on the fact it was built as a first car and only run a couple of events)

I did take your advice and try to run that one down, however, I got nowhere on it. I gave up after I talked with someone that said he had rolled it. It's a 99, and as such, windsheilds come from the UK, last I checked at about 800$ each or scrounged used from somewhere in the US. (I have a friend that ran the service side of the calgary dealership... 99 sales numbers were not high here)

Quote
Morison

Quote
MattWatson
Be damned what everyone else thinks.

This one is a bit of a problem since advice usually comes with some level of experience or observation attached to it. The last person I dealt with who 'ignored all the advice' was man enough to admit he had made a mistake as he bowed out of the sport...

I've seen many cases where people dove into their first builds and have decided to do something 'different' or 'better' only to find out later why it's not generally done that way. Buying, and running, a used car before you build your own is a great way to get a handle on what you would do differently.

Just wanted to put it out there that this was mostly tongue in cheek.

Quote
Morison
There is a reality that, as long as you don't ball it up, you can generally resell a used car after a couple of events and get back most of your money. (Less event costs, obviously) It might take some time, and you won't always get all of your money back, but the loss on a car you build will be massive in comparison (as a rule, there will be exceptions.)

This is a moot point, really, since there aren't a lot of used cars kicking around these days.

Which is a bit wierd really... based on what I read here, it seems to be a general consensus that there are lots of people that abandon their builds part way, so why the hell arn't they for sale somewhere. Conversely, I am the type of person that wouldn't put a car that I used etc up for sale unless I HAD to, or unless came and knocked on my door asking to buy it. Ask my wife, she'll confirm

Matt

Quote
MattWatson
Which is a bit wierd really... based on what I read here, it seems to be a general consensus that there are lots of people that abandon their builds part way, so why the hell arn't they for sale somewhere. Conversely, I am the type of person that wouldn't put a car that I used etc up for sale unless I HAD to, or unless came and knocked on my door asking to buy it. Ask my wife, she'll confirm

Most are like you. An abandoned build, or abandoned rally ready car for that matter, doesn't mean it is ever sold on to someone. Shawn Bishop has a list of the cars known to exist in Alberta and there are in excess of 30 cars, last I heard, that are considered 'inactive' and not for sale (not even confirmed where they are or who has them.) I know of one yard that has both a fire arrow and a 510 sitting doing nothing. (and both would need significant work)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison

Quote
MattWatson
So I guess my point is pretty simple: For me, if at the end of the day I suck shit at driving, at least I had the fun of building something.

Right on Brotha!
Without a doubt, for some the building is as much of the attraction as the actual rallying is. (And for the record, my guess is the used SAAB I mentioned would be one of those 'basket case' cars. My thinking is based on the fact it was built as a first car and only run a couple of events)

The idea that you can spend slowly when building is also valid, but you also have to consider that you end up spending considerably more, in most cases.

Quote
MattWatson
Be damned what everyone else thinks.

This one is a bit of a problem since advice usually comes with some level of experience or observation attached to it. The last person I dealt with who 'ignored all the advice' was man enough to admit he had made a mistake as he bowed out of the sport...

I've seen many cases where people dove into their first builds and have decided to do something 'different' or 'better' only to find out later why it's not generally done that way. Buying, and running, a used car before you build your own is a great way to get a handle on what you would do differently.

There is a reality that, as long as you don't ball it up, you can generally resell a used car after a couple of events and get back most of your money. (Less event costs, obviously) It might take some time, and you won't always get all of your money back, but the loss on a car you build will be massive in comparison (as a rule, there will be exceptions.)

This is a moot point, really, since there aren't a lot of used cars kicking around these days.

Man you like to generally generalise

Yeah if your car is one of the 2 maybe 3 cars that all the kids repeat endlessly so new kids who know nothing think they are required to have one of the 2 or maybe 3 cars...Otherwise....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Man you like to generally generalise

It almost seems like you think there is something wrong with generalizing.
What else can you do when you're offering general advice?
So of course I generalize. Why wouldn't I? [

Quote
john vanlandingham
Yeah if your car is one of the 2 maybe 3 cars that all the kids repeat endlessly so new kids who know nothing think they are required to have one of the 2 or maybe 3 cars...Otherwise....

Not my experience at all.
We've seen a range of cars change hands repeatedly for not a huge capital loss (operating is another story.) I've never suggested they had to be the 'popular' cars to be able to rotate through one without a big loss... I don't think that's the case. 'Oddball' cars will just take longer to find the right buyer.

In my own experience, I sold both of my prepared rally cars for acceptably close to what they cost me without trying at all. Without even listing them for sale they sold for what I wanted for them and neither was a 'popular' car. (2nd gen RX7 and 98 2.5 RS PGT car sold in 2004 when the WRXs were already popular)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.