How to get started in Rally video

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SeanP
You're drunk, John. Go home.

Ok but follow the links---if you want to know what's needed to improve.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
... is the emphasis on "the indispensability of Left Foot Braking" and "preserve momentum" or "carry the speed thru the corner"...
Both recipes for disaster.

Lets try this again, since I was actually asking the question because I'm truly interested in why you suggest 'preserving momentum,' in particular, is a recipe for disaster.
So, again, how so?

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john vanlandingham
Morison I really am not interested in debating with you on every fucking thing.

Debate, discuss, tomato, tomatoe... it's all just talking about things and sharing why you think and say things.

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john vanlandingham
After all since you expouse opinions on every subject you must already know everything, same with the punk who "has seen it everything" at 23.

Only a stupid man thinks they know everything. I'm far from stupid. In fact, I'm smart enough to ask questions when someone expresses an opinion that is different from my experiences so that I can understand the different perspective.

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john vanlandingham
You believe you know what's needed to go down a stage and I believe you know NEXT to nothing, there is no point in thrashing.

And I believe you automatically dismiss, and attempt to discredit, anything I say without having a clue about my experience or knowledge. (In fact, you somtimes work to discredit me by ascribing comments and positions to be that aren't mine, as you've done here.)

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john vanlandingham
I DON'T see anybody braking particularly HARD especially the 99%. But you

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"see soooooo many people who throw the anchor out".

A slight misspeak on my part. In context it should have been clear that what I was saying was that what I've seen is that people generally slow down too much for corners, putter around them and then get on the gas again. 'Throwing the anchor out' was to suggest slowing excessively, not necessarily breaking hard.

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john vanlandingham
There's a lot more very interesting stuff for you guys, oh except Morison, the "seen it all" kid and a few others who KNOW 20 -30 minutes doing a new something improves things...[/b]
I don't think I've ever suggested that '20-30 minutes' is enough to fully learn anything. Is 20-30 minutes of 'learning' LFB enough to make a difference? Depends on the driver, the tuition and the determination but no matter what, there is still a LOT of learning left to be done on the subject.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
Lets try this again

I believe you've been trying for the past couple of years Keith. I suggest you take the same approach I have, as arguing about stuff on this forum (which in the end is fairly meaningless) with a wall is fairly pointless. The amount of humoring you bestow upon JVL is much more than I've saw you give most other people in real life

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HiTempguy

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Morison
Lets try this again

I believe you've been trying for the past couple of years Keith. I suggest you take the same approach I have, as arguing about stuff on this forum (which in the end is fairly meaningless) with a wall is fairly pointless. The amount of humoring you bestow upon JVL is much more than I've saw you give most other people in real life

Oh it'sd Mr "I've seen it all", imagine my joy!
Hey did you read the article?
here just for you since we know you can't ever be troubled to read things since you've seen everything at 23:
http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/everything/ericsson2007a.pdf

Then rather than running your admitted "loud and obnoxious" mouth, think for a month or two about what is documented in the article.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Only read the intro, but so far a great article.
I've never said LFBing is not a needed skill. I also understand why they teach it at rally schools even if it's what I would consider an advanced skill better suited to day 4 or advanced courses, it's really easy to teach, explain, and justifies the 120 per hour you are paying to be there.
What I have said, and will continue to uphold, is that it is a hinderance to many in my opinion, based upon observation on stage of brake lights in Subaru's that are using LFBing while not actually going fast enough to need it and thus just losing time.
Dave - You were there at Olympus. Remember that first stage? I think you and I talked about it at one point while filming, how slowly most of the Subaru's were going and using WAY too much brake.
Anyone ever seen the video where Pastrana was riding along with Mirra and doing a little coaching. The thing that I remember from that one was Travis telling him he was braking too early.

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Grant Hughes

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NoCoast
Only read the intro, but so far a great article.
I've never said LFBing is not a needed skill. I also understand why they teach it at rally schools even if it's what I would consider an advanced skill better suited to day 4 or advanced courses, it's really easy to teach, explain, and justifies the 120 per hour you are paying to be there.
What I have said, and will continue to uphold, is that it is a hinderance to many in my opinion, based upon observation on stage of brake lights in Subaru's that are using LFBing while not actually going fast enough to need it and thus just losing time.
Dave - You were there at Olympus. Remember that first stage? I think you and I talked about it at one point while filming, how slowly most of the Subaru's were going and using WAY too much brake.
Anyone ever seen the video where Pastrana was riding along with Mirra and doing a little coaching. The thing that I remember from that one was Travis telling him he was braking too early.

Grant I too know that LFB is a useful skill, but in the hierarchy of skills needed to the 99% of people, thre are as you say other things one could prioritize that are needed constantly and which are hard to develop ----- my focus is the consumerist mentality espoused by many that says IN ESSENCE "I paid for a rally course and they said they'd teach me everything so therefore I must know everything anout er um er um uh Oh YEAH! LFB!"

Maybe I just have a much different yard-stick on what I consider knowing anything, much less "everything.".

Kinda what is expressed in the " through extended deliberate practice (e.g., high concentration practice beyond one's comfort zone)."
Extended, like HUNDREDS hours of deliberate practice, with some measurable means to gauge progress and honest assessments of results.

Not a couple of loose hours with some 20 or 30 somethings rambling away throwing cliches at you...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The one thing I've always said is, how do you know how fast your car can take a corner if you never even come close to that limit. One thing I love about our hill climb series: improvement over runs. When you are able to find 3-5 seconds per mile over the course of 5-6 runs, you know there is still room for improvement. When you have the opportunity to look back and say, I know I can take that corner in 4th or, I need to brake later and less here, and then do it and see a few seconds improvement. Just unfortunate we can't get 10+ runs on it over the weekend with less down time to keep the mind focused.

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Grant Hughes

What you have to understand is most people on the brakes too much with their left foot would most likely be going even slower into that corner if they were right foot braking.

Yeah I dont drive nearly as fast as I could into the corners as I should. I drive whats comfortable to my skill set. My times are clearly faster using LFB'ing though. Doesn't mean i'm not braking to early.

It's nice having that feeling that if you start to understeer its pretty easily fixable provided you're not going way to fast, while staying on the gas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2013 03:41PM by czwalga.

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john vanlandingham
My focus is the consumerist mentality espoused by many that says IN ESSENCE "I paid for a rally course and they said they'd teach me everything so therefore I must know everything...

If anyone told me they took a school so they know everything they need to know, I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face as I politely suggested they probably should keep an open mind to learning more.
What schools are good at delivering is the basic knowledge to grow from and, typically, use extended, deliberate practice to do so.

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john vanlandingham
Maybe I just have a much different yard-stick on what I consider knowing anything, much less "everything."

Maybe you have a much different yard-stick for everything. (Not much 'maybe' in that actually)

As an example, you seem to confuse a simple expression of an idea or belief (from others) as being a simultaneous declaration of expertise. It ain't. Neither is the expression of 'knowledge' the same as an expression of skill, aptitude or ability to apply the knowledge.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I was told years ago that you had to ware out the ass of 2 fire suits before you can claim to be a race car driver. Im on my 4th so I at least quilify as a racer but still have 2 to go to be qulified as a rally driver!

I was talking to Prichard at STPR on how he beat my ass by over a minute on stage 1. He ask how many rallies ive done. I said this is my second rally first rally on gravel. He laughed and said hes wrecked more cars then ive rallied.

We all agree here that seat time is king.

Another thing ive learned over the years is that controling your emotions is key to staying fast. Thats all emotions fear,anger,happiness all of them. Keep them in check when things go wrong or wright and you will usually do well. I have a hard time with this.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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NoCoast
The one thing I've always said is, how do you know how fast your car can take a corner if you never even come close to that limit. One thing I love about our hill climb series: improvement over runs. When you are able to find 3-5 seconds per mile over the course of 5-6 runs, you know there is still room for improvement. When you have the opportunity to look back and say, I know I can take that corner in 4th or, I need to brake later and less here, and then do it and see a few seconds improvement. Just unfortunate we can't get 10+ runs on it over the weekend with less down time to keep the mind focused.

You only "know' when you've found the limit when you dip your toe on the other side of the line and consistently find you've lost control, then you ratchet in back a tad.

What happens when we lose control, though? We only know THAT when we've lost control enough times to not shut down the whole being, and have some part awake, and to see what we did to help us regain control...

And what you're describing is a good form and needed type of learning: repetition and reinforcement---with a means to measure progress: time.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
No school in the Americas is building its own roads.

I have seen with my own eyes the grader sitting next to a freshly bladed course being constructed out of raw earth down in Florida at The FIRM. Roots sticking up out of the ground, huge mounds of dirt, all of what I had previously witnessed as a flat field.

I believe Tim has a grader, but I don't know if he has _constructed_ new roads (as opposed to maintained existing roads).

Cheers,
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Anders Green

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john vanlandingham
No school in the Americas is building its own roads.

I have seen with my own eyes the grader sitting next to a freshly bladed course being constructed out of raw earth down in Florida at The FIRM. Roots sticking up out of the ground, huge mounds of dirt, all of what I had previously witnessed as a flat field.

That's step one.
Then, most likely you need to put on 3-12 inches of good strong base to make up the subgrade, shape that to have some crown and ditches, then compact in your 3" or more of gravel and you are off to a good start.
The problems with using a grader and cutting a road out of a field, which works and what we have been using at CORE for years, are:
No moisture control = big ruts, big puddles, undriveable surface, etc. So rain can be an event ending affair. CORE is nearly ruined due to years of ruts and people driving when it's wet. Slide around and leave 3-4" tire depressions that become almost as hard as concrete after it dries.
Which leads to problem 2, degrading surface. That first year was awesome. We scraped the weeds and had a nice fun loose surface. Over time the loose disappeared and the rough appeared. It's almost like driving on a rough and bumpy surface. There is not gravel, it's not really that loose, there's corners that are black from tires there is so little loose.
And lastly, no course definition. There is one area that we had originally designed to be a busy downhill section. It had three yumps and you had three fast corners. It was challenging and fun. Eventually, mostly due to good suspension and "trying" to get through it with the most speed possible combined probably with the owner cutting out the yumps to appease street car drivers, the three corner, three yump section became straight. EVERY corner on the course has moved inward. The entire thing has become wider, probably doubled on average.

If anyone has some time to read and wants to find out proper gravel road construction info, here's a good article I found a few years back.
http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/nps/upload/2003_07_24_NPS_gravelroads_sec1.pdf
The pictures may make you want to go rally in Ecuador and New Zealand though.
Check out what they have to do to build the gravel road on the last page!
Spoiler: Fabric layer, 12 inches of base/subgrade, covered by 10 inches of gravel.

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Grant Hughes

Real gravel roads cost good money to build. No two ways about it. Gravel road maintenance can be done pretty reasonably though.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

with my rear wheel drive experience, i've never taken to using my left foot for braking. seems to unsettle the car more than anything.

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023