How many cars is O'Neil taking to events now?
You have the school that stands alone. You use that school as a sales tool (since you know the people you have brought in have disposable income so direct marketing) to sell actual rally cars that you build, plus transport, on event service, or rally rentals, etc. Suddenly that person that came to your $2k class has spent $100k with you in the past two years.

The club model will not work in the US due to litigious nature and geography. And insurance companies.

---

Grant Hughes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 12:42PM by NoCoast.

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john vanlandingham
All for free, all volunteers.. Cooperative efforts and it was that that let even a schmuck like that attain--relatively speaking---quite high levels of LOTS of needed skills---and was the foundation for life off the track. So the model of everything "must be' a product and for sale as a model of how to make a sport grow to some visibility and viability just seems flat one sided.)

So, if we take that to the xtreeeM, maybe you shouldn't charge for building soospenders? Not everyone can do fab work and not everyone is a suitable instructor...just look at that Kimi guy.

Just because there are some expensive driving schools out there doesn't mean that those teaching rally driving are the devil. I'd personally love to leave cube life behind and do something car related.

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NoCoast
Whoa whoa whoa. I am not saying that potential competitors SHOULD first go to a rally school, or even that anyone should. I have no plans to ever do so.

Says the guy who took a 'safety class based on rally techniques'...

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NoCoast
What I said was, people that have attended Dirtfish are potential competitors. They have two important things that every rallyist MUST have. Disposable income and interest in having more fun behind the wheel of a rally car.

^ This makes a ton of sense. Also, I've got friends who have zero interest in buying a car, maintaining it, buying a truck & trailer, and all the other mess required to get on stage. They are still interested in rallying, but are more arrive and drive types that will drop a decent chunk of change every once in a while to go have fun. Part of the reason I picked up Jari's BMW...that and I'd like to do more teaching/coaching.

Dave

Quote
NoCoast


The club model will not work in the US due to litigious nature and geography. And insurance companies.

They have lawsuits in the rest of the world.

They have geography too.

The club model may not work the same way as it does in everwhere else in the world..
But the reasons probably lie in the mono-thinking and unquestioning nature of the bulk of the population and their knee-jerk acceptance of the "Everything is a commodity---Profit in everything is the Natural way".

But that does not mean --as Americans tend to "reason" black/white ----can't be like the rest of the world because blah blah---so we throw out the whole system and learn nothing from it..

We can learn, we can find elements that can be applied to make the sport grow, and as for the monomaniacal commodification of everything, we can change that one person at a time..and we do..every voluntary thing we do is a mitzvah.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Okay, going back to my list. The only ones on this list that will find and watch a video about "How to get started..."
1) 19-24 with inherited level of wealth
2) Mid 20s-early 30s post college graduate that's always been a fan and ready to make next step.
3) Late 30-50s with growing children that want to get into the sport either because they've always been fans or want to have something to share with a teen son/daughter enthusiast.
4) 20-40 year old non-automotive business owner interested in a new hobby.
5) 20-40 year old automotive business owner interested in a new hobby.
6) Ex-action sports star

#1. Usually this person will want a sweet Open class Subaru. He's also been special all his life and gets what he wants and isn't here for fun, but to make a career as a rally star. Trying to convince him he should start in a 2WD car will likely just alienate him.

#2. Probably knows what a bucket list is. Feels suddenly loaded! now that he's got a cushy job and tons of disposable cash. Usually these guys just go buy an STI or Evo, maybe do a few rallycrosses but seldom transition further. However, within a few years it is likely that he will have a house payment, wife and maybe a kid. All that disposable cash doesn't seem to go quite far enough. Before he knows it he's driving a Toyota minivan. Consider the rising cost of upper education and the quantity of student loan debt, rising home costs and shrinking salaries and this group has less disposable income than ever.

#3. Wants to get dirty. The entire experience is important, willing to learn how to do shit, ready to get out of the minivan and have a little fun! Old enough to be wise and not willing to pull out the wallet easily and definitely smart enough (hopefully) to not pay for rallying with debt or retirement investment income.

#4. Either is doing well with business and has cash, or isn't. This person needs an arrive and drive situation unless they are successful enough and willing to support a friend's shop financially to build and maintain their own car and be coowners.

#5. This guy will build whatever car is best for his shop. Hopefully has some tech ability and fabrication skills.

#6. These guys all do GRC now...

So, these are all broad generalizations of course and definitely not all encompassing, but example of how different a group rallyists can be and as you can imagine, a video aimed to attract more rallyists is highly dependent on which group you are targeting.

---

Grant Hughes

Pretty much nailed me on #3

I'm #3 minus the kids but plus a dog that costs us a fortune, maybe more than a kid. Probably not, but close.

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DaveK

True, but self learning bad habits and reinforcing them is bad.

It is almost horrifying how poorly some people drive in loose-surface conditions (or in general). Having had the experience of teaching at a driving school, I was in for a surprise... of course, if I go somewhere, I drive 99% of the time.

So I agree, some people TRULY do NEED the school in order to rally. Otherwise, they are stuck doing 37mph average on a stage. And because they drive with their bad habits, they never learn (as nobody teaches them) how to get away from them.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT, there is nothing I've seen from rally schools (except one like Pat's where he one on ones you on backroads... that didn't come out right ) that you can't learn at faster rallycrosses like the ERC hosts.

Edit-
AKA, they are a ripoff for the cost. Our test days for $225 would be much better renting a rally car for the day and getting an experienced driver to be in the passenger seat with you. Once I get into my condo, my next large financial purchase will be the most inexpensive rallycar I can find to do exactly this with (rent to people for cheap so they get a feel for rally before committing $8+k).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 04:30PM by HiTempguy.

Quote
HiTempguy
So I agree, some people TRULY do NEED the school in order to rally. Otherwise, they are stuck doing 37mph average on a stage. And because they drive with their bad habits, they never learn (as nobody teaches them) how to get away from them.

There are plenty of people that are slow due to overuse of techniques like left foot braking or handbrake turns that they learned in rally school.
I think of them as an experience thing more than an actual school. You get to go out, have some fun in a rally like setting, learn about and try your hand at some of the driving theories.
You know why they focus so much on LFBing? It's something that you can write into a curriculum and the theory/physics involved is easily taught/demonstrated. Same with handbrake turns and scandy's.
You know why they are so expensive? Instructors are 150-200 per day easily, maintenance crews, road base is ~$15k for 1 mile single lane 1" thick, you'll need 3" minimum plus tons of time building up the road, grading, compacting, ditches, etc. A grader and operator is usually ~$100 per hour plus diesel. Real estate cost, land lease or mortgages. Rally tires. Petrol. Rally cars and maintenance. Insurance. Taxes, taxes, and more taxes. Marketing, office staff, etc.
Those are all fixed costs that are unavoidable. Then you have to take the number of people that will show up and charge them enough money to hopefully be able to pay all your bills. You will need $500k+ in startup capital at a minimum.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
HiTempguy
So I agree, some people TRULY do NEED the school in order to rally. Otherwise, they are stuck doing 37mph average on a stage. And because they drive with their bad habits, they never learn (as nobody teaches them) how to get away from them.

There are plenty of people that are slow due to overuse of techniques like left foot braking or handbrake turns that they learned in rally school.
I think of them as an experience thing more than an actual school. You get to go out, have some fun in a rally like setting, learn about and try your hand at some of the driving theories.
You know why they focus so much on LFBing? It's something that you can write into a curriculum and the theory/physics involved is easily taught/demonstrated. Same with handbrake turns and scandy's.
You know why they are so expensive? Instructors are 150-200 per day easily, maintenance crews, road base is ~$15k for 1 mile single lane 1" thick, you'll need 3" minimum plus tons of time building up the road, grading, compacting, ditches, etc. A grader and operator is usually ~$100 per hour plus diesel. Real estate cost, land lease or mortgages. Rally tires. Petrol. Rally cars and maintenance. Insurance. Taxes, taxes, and more taxes. Marketing, office staff, etc.
Those are all fixed costs that are unavoidable. Then you have to take the number of people that will show up and charge them enough money to hopefully be able to pay all your bills. You will need $500k+ in startup capital at a minimum.

I know why they do and its nothing what you're talking about.
Its rooted in language and dialog and recognition and group forming/reinforcement.


No school in the Americas is building its own roads.
Like cages, the "school" costs are mainly a case of 'what we think the market will bear". aka "a roadrace school costs XXXX'" exactly as people say "welll the entry isn't TOOOOOOOOOOOOO over the top for a National, a roadrace National........"


In the lack of knowledge, and/or the face of decades of obfuscation, people will make up 'comparable" things or "things to compare" doesn't matter they know nothing about either.

HEY GRANT UPS just dropped off something for Scott M he'll be happy to see..Can you call or text or post on facebook or tweet or whatever the fuck the fad is that I emailed him.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2013 06:05PM by john vanlandingham.

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NoCoast
You know why they focus so much on LFBing?

I figured this was two-fold:
* It's something they can go home and tell their friends (or write blog posts etc) about. "They made me brake with my left foot - cah-ray-zee!"
* It's reasonably important to make the car squish cones faster, which is as much as many rally school attendees will ever do.

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Quote
Aaron Luptak

Quote
NoCoast
You know why they focus so much on LFBing?

I figured this was two-fold:
* It's something they can go home and tell their friends (or write blog posts etc) about. "They made me brake with my left foot - cah-ray-zee!"
* It's reasonably important to make the car squish cones faster, which is as much as many rally school attendees will ever do.

I don't care what everybody else says, you ain't half dumb!

Just like if the same guy is suddenly siezed by a whim to make a career road racing , when he gets back from the "school" he will have learned one or 2 "unique to road-racing" phrases he can drop into conversations like "Oh yeah (with a casual and dismissive sweep of his limp wrist) I learned all about late apexing and threshold braking. They spent a lot of intense time maybe as much as 15 minutes Yeahs---(taking a dragof his Virginia Slims in a 8" cigarette holder)


I guess y'all (not you Aaron) never heard "I leeeeeetle knowledge is a dangerous thing"?

This social marker thing combined with a generation who buys wholeheartedly the commodification of everything leads to; I bought the rally school, i went there. I paid $xxxxxx. I therefore "know all about"...______________"

We see it too often with idiot 21 -23 y.o.s in every respect "I seen pretty much everything".. Well maybe you guys don't because you are closer to that generation of "I bought the costume so now i'm a firefighter/pilot/cop/doctor/injur-near" mentality...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Let me tell you, trying to think of what a curriculum would look like for a RWD rally car is hard. I mean, LFBing isn't nearly the magic trick it is in a FWD or AWD car. Hand brakes in RWD are for when you really, really fuck up not for driving.
I've always been under assumption that Dirtfish is really just a play thing for some rich guys but is really more about owning the property it is on and waiting for the future to develop on it. This way they can actually use it and generate some revenue and good will in community before they turn it into another suburban neighborhood with Costco and such.
Maybe they build the roads, maybe they find the perfect property with existing roads. Regardless, they gotta be maintained. CHCA pays like $10k to repair Lands End Road after the hill climb at the end of July so it's not exactly cheap.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
Aaron Luptak
* It's reasonably important to make the car squish cones faster, which is as much as many rally school attendees will ever do.

Fastest rallycrosser I've known has never used LFBing. He hadn't done an event in like five years and came out to one last year in a borrowed car he'd never driven and won the AWD stock class and was not far off FTD. Also won a regional stage rally overall once without any LFBing.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast
Let me tell you, trying to think of what a curriculum would look like for a RWD rally car is hard. I mean, LFBing isn't nearly the magic trick it is in a FWD or AWD car.

I disagree...and I disagree there are substantial differences in what you must do to drive a proper FWD, RWD or 4WD...

IF it is a legitimate technique, then it works regardless of the vehicle drive configuration (think about it---wheen you're braking you aren't "driving" as in ON THE GAS to accelerate...you braking for cornering----and weight shift is weight shift be it on a FWD, RWD. 4WD or a motorcycle. Its purpose is to continuously load the front wheels so they bite the loose surface.

And although it is incessantly touted as "magic', it isn't, its subtle and main problem is it is an advanced driving technique harangued into novices 99.9% who cannot even brake properly...

Quote

Hand brakes in RWD are for when you really, really fuck up not for driving.

It is often overused but we all fuck up frequently. this its nice to have one that works.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

#5 on the list.

Absolutly no way you could be fast in an oval track car with out LFB. Maybe talladega but no normal short track. Using the gas and brake at the same time is crucial to fast lap times. Im sure actualy know it translates to rally. I really suck at rally but know LFB is a tool that a driver needs to know how to use if the road calls for it.

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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