Nameless Rally Cloquallum Stage

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zerodegreec
Adam can say what he wants, but his co-driving carrier with Hardy was not perfect and without error.

Never said it was, can't learn if you don't make mistakes (and recognize that they were mistakes). I've also co-driven with a lot more people than just Hardy, and managed to work with them (as a team) to go fast. I've always said that a co-driver doesn't make a driver fast, but allows him to realize his true potential. Having co-driven for Hardy (and others), and understanding what we did wrong, I have been able to come to terms very quickly with my notes, but I am always finding new things as a driver that can be said/noted better.

I find it hilarious that on this forum (where apparently time doing something is the number one qualifier of your talent level, or at least it was, now it is simply how old you are is what I am gathering), somehow having almost done the most events out of anyone here doesn't garner the least bit of respect or "imparted" knowledge acknowledgement, even though that's supposedly how it works. Not that I really care, just thought I'd point it out. Inb4JVL nonsense lol.

(thanks for keeping me entertained guys, it sure is boring between Winnipeg and Kapuskasing!)

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zerodegreec
To your point keith, Wim prefers to not have a distance or use an "And" when the next instruction is immediate.

That's fine, if it is clear that no modifier means immediate.

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zerodegreec
Its not deceptive...

13 cars missed the corner, many of them very experienced. I wasn't there but it is clear the corner WAS deceptive.

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zerodegreec
Hind sight and replaying in-car makes the mistake obvious. At the time of running at speed, MANY cars made the same mistake. Adam can say what he wants, but his co-driving carrier with Hardy was not perfect and without error.

This isn't about pointing fingers or laying blame. We've all made mistakes and it is talking them through that helps us all learn and grow.

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zerodegreec
...but when top teams blow the same corner, its not a rookie "you should know better" or have done x y z type situation.

Agreed, but it is a 'what can we change to avoid this happening again' situation for everyone.

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zerodegreec
How long would it take for someone to find you?

I almost hate to say it, but there are two or three ways RallySafe could have prevented this situation in general and the accident in particular. The cost of the damage to the two cars alone would have paid for the system on the event.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

All this talk of good recce, co-driving, and notes... We had the stage win until they cancelled the stage, all thanks to being OBSERVANT during recce and finding such a good shortcut. Everyone else is just jealous they weren't able to utilize it like I was.

Most people know I have almost unlimited respect for the Fugawi opening crew. Again, this discussion is more about learning from what happened than it is pointing fingers. Blaming any one person is not the way to find effective, lasting solutions.

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somepants
The turn was not deceptive with the tape up. The instruction marker was there and when all three course opening cars went by none of us flagged it as a problem. Neither did advance. We did at many points stop during our runs and raise tape or modify tape as needed. If tape was not visible adequately, we raised is as best we could. If it was on the ground it was fixed. If it was missing (and we ran into this a few times on Sunday morning as the locals had vandalized the course overnight, pulling down tape and removing instruction markers) we replaced it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you guys didn't do your jobs. I've seen it, things can happen between 0 and the first car.

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somepants
With tape missing... I can understand the request to have two levels of tape in case someone runs the turn but it's hard enough in some places to find a way to fix the tape in place.

My point was that one line of tape simply isn't enough if there isn't someone there to reset it if it gets taken down.

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somepants
Having one higher would require the advance cars to bring ladders and even then in many places it can't be done.

Agreed ...

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somepants
The right thing to do would have been to post a corner marshall at that location.

All too familiar with too many spots, not enough people. Without the staffing, you need to consider the contingencies.

This was done on the second running of the stage. If we had more volunteers then this location would have had a marshall on the first running as well. A volunteer had to be repositioned for the second running from their location to here, thus making somewhere else unmonitored.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

The corner was clear to 2/3 of the teams running, so not a total cluster. The lead car took out the banner guard on BOTH ends of the pass thru and didn't report it that we are aware of. How do you not see banner guard on both ends, especially if your notes don't match up with where you are?

We will keep an eye for such possibilities in the future, as well as instructing novice drivers about the dangers of reversing course.

Toni and Will had great advice immediately after the stage about adding more banner guard (bunting in Oz) in layers down the road. Easy fix and we may be adding claymores also. The questioned main offender also refused to relinquish his starting place later when on 3 wheels at the start of a stage. I heard about it seconds too late and the 2nd and 3rd place cars both caught him before the stage end. Derik passed him in even heavier dust due to the missing wheel and car dragging. ODriscoll/manspeaker caught him but couldn't pass due to the dust...that's 4 minutes in 12ish miles. I tried to wave him over with regulation stop clock sign at spectator, but might as well have been banner guard as I was totally ignored. Probably not an issue but I personally won't accept an entry from this competitor in the future, just so we are all on the same page.

We had the notes right. I just second guessed my codriver with the absence of tape.

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heymagic
The corner was clear to 2/3 of the teams running, so not a total cluster. The lead car took out the banner guard on BOTH ends of the pass thru and didn't report it that we are aware of. How do you not see banner guard on both ends, especially if your notes don't match up with where you are?

We will keep an eye for such possibilities in the future, as well as instructing novice drivers about the dangers of reversing course.

Toni and Will had great advice immediately after the stage about adding more banner guard (bunting in Oz) in layers down the road. Easy fix and we may be adding claymores also. The questioned main offender also refused to relinquish his starting place later when on 3 wheels at the start of a stage. I heard about it seconds too late and the 2nd and 3rd place cars both caught him before the stage end. Derik passed him in even heavier dust due to the missing wheel and car dragging. ODriscoll/manspeaker caught him but couldn't pass due to the dust...that's 4 minutes in 12ish miles. I tried to wave him over with regulation stop clock sign at spectator, but might as well have been banner guard as I was totally ignored. Probably not an issue but I personally won't accept an entry from this competitor in the future, just so we are all on the same page.

Sounds to me like it was just blatant disregard for the rally by one team. You can argue back and forth all day about the codrivers marking distances etc., not turning around etc etc. But really it seems as if one person just ruined that stage and caused a wreck between two cars because he saw a shortcut on recce or looking at google maps knowing it would come back out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2013 02:28PM by czwalga.

I should have kept their Ohlins shock and wheel that I found off the side of the stage when we were picking up the carnage!

Okay, this picture is becoming clearer. I'm with Gene, I don't want whoever this outfit is around. Willing to endanger everyone else, willing to cheat in rather blatant fashion, refusing to give up the start position even though they're on 3 wheels (WTF?) and ignoring a rally official waveover (DOUBLE WTF??), let 'em go do pro rasslin' instead. I can only afford to do one or two events a year and don't want em ruined by some shiny happy person..

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

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HiTempguy
Shit happens.

The best thing is nobody was hurt!

Agreed!

Also, I will say that I find it hard to believe that anyone intentionally cut the course. I can certainly believe that some blew the turn, and then continued on to the next banner tape (re-joining the course) either intentionally or by chance. If I'd made it to the next banner tape, I would like to believe that I would have waited there until the car I started behind went by - but I don't blame anyone for rejoining whenever they thought it was safe. You never know what happened to the car in front of you (they could have stuffed it before making it to the re-join point).

It all comes down to: Crazy things happen at rally. Lots of random stuff that you cannot plan for. This is what makes us keep coming back. All we can do is use our best rally-sense in such odd situations. And I like this discussion because it should help raise the general rally-sense of everyone reading and contributing.

Doug

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Doug Heredos

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HiTempguy
Shit happens.

The best thing is nobody was hurt!

Agreed!

Also, I will say that I find it hard to believe that anyone intentionally cut the course. I can certainly believe that some blew the turn, and then continued on to the next banner tape (re-joining the course) either intentionally or by chance. If I'd made it to the next banner tape, I would like to believe that I would have waited there until the car I started behind went by - but I don't blame anyone for rejoining whenever they thought it was safe. You never know what happened to the car in front of you (they could have stuffed it before making it to the re-join point).

It all comes down to: Crazy things happen at rally. Lots of random stuff that you cannot plan for. This is what makes us keep coming back. All we can do is use our best rally-sense in such odd situations. And I like this discussion because it should help raise the general rally-sense of everyone reading and contributing.

Doug

I'd question how you could run through banner tape going across the road and continue down that road 'racing' just hoping to get lucky? or thinking they were anywhere were they should be.

For everyone else I can understand the mistake.

Are these "offenders" the same guys who blew up their trans at The Ridge stage start last year?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I guess I could put the bannerblowing, maybe on both ends, down to red mist. The rest of it? Nope...

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

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HiTempguy

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zerodegreec
Adam can say what he wants, but his co-driving carrier with Hardy was not perfect and without error.

Never said it was, can't learn if you don't make mistakes (and recognize that they were mistakes). I've also co-driven with a lot more people than just Hardy, and managed to work with them (as a team) to go fast. I've always said that a co-driver doesn't make a driver fast, but allows him to realize his true potential. Having co-driven for Hardy (and others), and understanding what we did wrong, I have been able to come to terms very quickly with my notes, but I am always finding new things as a driver that can be said/noted better.

I find it hilarious that on this forum (where apparently time doing something is the number one qualifier of your talent level, or at least it was, now it is simply how old you are is what I am gathering), somehow having almost done the most events out of anyone here doesn't garner the least bit of respect or "imparted" knowledge acknowledgement, even though that's supposedly how it works. Not that I really care, just thought I'd point it out. Inb4JVL nonsense lol.

(thanks for keeping me entertained guys, it sure is boring between Winnipeg and Kapuskasing!)

Fuck you, Adam you fuckin fuck...ha! h! ha! that's entertaining ha! ha!.[/punk Adam Vokes mind off] (wait! how can you turn off something that was never turned on?)

What a pitiful human.

what a stupid, and wrong conclusion.. And exactly what we've all come to expect from "I've done everything" Adam..
Hey dweeb, IF a person is of normal degree of alertness, then then eventually through experience, they will almost without a doubt learned a good deal, and probably thru repeating mistakes until the solutions are more clear..

But while a normal person sitting in other people cars and yapping some noise for several years might normally be expected to give normal people some experience and some insights , obviously from reading your purposely rude and obnoxious bullshit for years, it is clear you have learned nothing except that you are the best... THE BEST from day one. the day you popped out..
Amazing really...


Personally I wonder why you're still fucking around doing whatever busllshit you're doing rather than being a co-driver or team manager in the WRC?

Why is that?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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heymagic
The questioned main offender also refused to relinquish his starting place later when on 3 wheels at the start of a stage. I heard about it seconds too late and the 2nd and 3rd place cars both caught him before the stage end. Derik passed him in even heavier dust due to the missing wheel and car dragging. ODriscoll/manspeaker caught him but couldn't pass due to the dust...that's 4 minutes in 12ish miles. I tried to wave him over with regulation stop clock sign at spectator, but might as well have been banner guard as I was totally ignored. Probably not an issue but I personally won't accept an entry from this competitor in the future, just so we are all on the same page.

Good to hear, Gene.

Just to give everyone a little further insight to his attitude, here is a reply on FB by Song when asked what the penalties he got were for:

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Tingwu Song: Supposedly I blocked two competitors behind me, I was wounded with half the car dragging on the floor and a mile long dust trail, I kept looking back the whole ss6, saw the BMW and let him pass, I barely have control to remain on the road, and the guy behind me puts in an complaint against me for "intentionally blocking him". Yesterday at 10:43am via mobile · Like

Shows a complete lack of regard for his fellow competitors if you ask me. He seriously can't understand what he did wrong or why he should get penalized. Maybe if you can't control your three wheeled car you should pull the fuck over, but no, it's all about him.

The ironic thing is if he had just stopped and changed the flat on stage before it did any damage it would have cost him what, two and half, three minutes? A lot less time than it cost after he tore the car all up, had to start the next stage on three wheels (well, he didn't have to but he did), delayed other competitors, and wasn't able to compete on Sunday. So not only is he not very considerate, he's not very smart.

I also heard that they loaded the passenger side of the car up with a crap load of big rocks to help balance the car. Any guesses how smart of an idea that would have seemed if they had rolled?