CARS Class Rule Change Proposal

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Gravity Fed
i only ask because its common for people to hold an opinion on something that might not directly affect them at meetings. Seen it before organizing rallies, so was just curious.

I've seen the same at meetings, but this was solicited feeback outside of a meeting. Generally only people who are directly affected would bother responding.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
FWIW: there have been 5 responses in favour of the proposal and one complaining about the 2900lb minimum weight, wanting to run unrestricted at 2700lbs instead. (also a new competitor who's never run a stage before)

Also FWIW: I posed these questions to the committee chair today, in advance of the board meeting on Wednesday:

Glad we are so condescending towards feedback.

That wasn't precisely my feedback, It asked about finer displacement steps and about the fact that unrestricted had only one category: To which Darly summarized my discussion as me 'complaining' that unrestricted should be 2700lbs. I agreed to it (not the complaining part) since the whole tone of the emails back and forth was completely dismissive. I also asked about intent of the rules given a much bantered 250HP 2wd effective max HP, which I also recieved an answer to.

Note: next time, if you don't want dissenting feedback, DONT ASK. I won't be weighing in or commenting to CARS anymore until I have done a couple years worth of rally.

Edit: Fixed the quote



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2013 12:33PM by MattWatson.

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Morison
FWIW: there have been 5 responses in favour of the proposal and one complaining about the 2900lb minimum weight, wanting to run unrestricted at 2700lbs instead. (also a new competitor who's never run a stage before)

So that's like three more responses than all the Group 5 competitors in Canada right?
What did ACP say?
What did Martin Walter say?

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Grant Hughes

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MattWatson
That wasn't precisely my feedback, It asked about finer displacement steps and about the fact that unrestricted had only one category: To which Darly summarized my discussion as me 'complaining' that unrestricted should be 2700lbs.

Thanks for your perspective of the discussion. I only know what I was told, which was that someone was asking why their 2.3l turbo couldn't come in at 2700lbs.

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MattWatson
I also asked about intent of the rules given a much bantered 250HP 2wd effective max HP, which I also recieved an answer to.

Some people say max to the ground is 200, some say 225, some say 250... the reality is there is nowhere near a consensus about the effective traction limit of 2wd. But, that's a rabbit hole of a discussion that leads nowhere. There isn't a consensus and neither side of the discussion will concede an inch on it.

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MattWatson
Note: next time, if you don't want dissenting feedback, DONT ASK. I won't be weighing in or commenting to CARS anymore until I have done a couple years worth of rally.

It isn't that we don't want dissenting feedback, we do. All I was saying is that the last think a new driver needs to be concerned about when getting on stage is getting the most power and the least weight in the car. There is a LOT of other things that will make you faster on stage than HP/torque to weight ratios.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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MattWatson
Note: next time, if you don't want dissenting feedback, DONT ASK. I won't be weighing in or commenting to CARS anymore until I have done a couple years worth of rally.

It isn't that we don't want dissenting feedback, we do. All I was saying is that the last think a new driver needs to be concerned about when getting on stage is getting the most power and the least weight in the car. There is a LOT of other things that will make you faster on stage than HP/torque to weight ratios.

Maybe I am being sensitive, but that is the EXACT feeling I got from the responses. I also get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that my feedback doesn't mean anything since I havn't "been on stage". I responded, because there was a rule that directly affected me, and my choices, so I gave feedback.

Don't get me wrong, at this point, I don't give 2 shits about power to weight. Maybe after a year I will, at which point I will add a restrictor. I care keeping costs in line so I can actually get out on stage. One of those costs is adding 200lbs in ballast, the more I can reduce that, the better. (ie. if 2300cc engines had a unrestricted weight of 2800 for example.. I never reasonably expected the restricted and unrestricted weights to be the same...)

I was fully planning to run under the old group 5 rules here in the west earning no points. I don't give a rats ass as long as I actually can run. At least to start with. With my background, that attitude is not likely to last very long once my feet are wet.

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NoCoast

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Morison
FWIW: there have been 5 responses in favour of the proposal and one complaining about the 2900lb minimum weight, wanting to run unrestricted at 2700lbs instead. (also a new competitor who's never run a stage before)

So that's like three more responses than all the Group 5 competitors in Canada right?

Wrong. Nationally there are no G5 entries now... what's the point, there's no one to compete against.

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NoCoast
What did ACP say?

What did Martin Walter say?

No idea if ACP said anything.

I said above "I gave my, positive, feedback directly to John Hall at BDC. One of the things he said was 'we think these weights could need further tweaking, but we feel this is a good start' (or something very close)."

My additional comments... CARS are listening, and have done something about this that at least makes sense, and is a step in the right direction (is it perfect? Probably not, but what rules are?). To me personally it means that as of Jan 1st 2014 I can go back to running the way we have been for the last 6 or 7 years, my car is already a heavy pig.

-Martin

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MattWatson
I was fully planning to run under the old group 5 rules here in the west earning no points. I don't give a rats ass as long as I actually can run. At least to start with. With my background, that attitude is not likely to last very long once my feet are wet.

And this is a key point that has to be kept in perspective.
RallyWest and RPM, the regional bodies, have said that 'group 5' will continue as it was in the regional championships. So, your 2700lb forced induction, unrestricted 2.3l will be Gr5 legal in western Canada. The 'new' rules will only factor in once you decide to take a run at the National Championship, which would have to include at least one trip to the east so you can start the minimum number of events. (half the championship)

Make sure your voice is heard at the regional level so that Gr5 continues on, but every indication last year was the regions saw the class continuing indefinitely.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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MattWatson
I was fully planning to run under the old group 5 rules here in the west earning no points. I don't give a rats ass as long as I actually can run. At least to start with. With my background, that attitude is not likely to last very long once my feet are wet.

And this is a key point that has to be kept in perspective.
RallyWest and RPM, the regional bodies, have said that 'group 5' will continue as it was in the regional championships. So, your 2700lb forced induction, unrestricted 2.3l will be Gr5 legal in western Canada. The 'new' rules will only factor in once you decide to take a run at the National Championship, which would have to include at least one trip to the east so you can start the minimum number of events. (half the championship)

Make sure your voice is heard at the regional level so that Gr5 continues on, but every indication last year was the regions saw the class continuing indefinitely.

Excellent.