CARS Class Rule Change Proposal

So CARS has presented a revised class structure that would keep Group 5 cars out of the Open 4wd class after 2014 AND answer the concerns of the Group 2 competitors who see the Group 5 cars as having an advantage.

Its kind of an elegant solution actually; one based on vehicle weight. At first glance I really think its a smart idea but I would love to hear other's opinions.

-Tony

Here is the link:

http://carsrally.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=120%3Abulletin-2013-10-large-displacement-rule-change-proposal&catid=1%3Acars-news&Itemid=14&lang=en

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2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all

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AnthonyLatham
I would love to hear other's opinions.

I'll get a committee on it straight away.

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Kirk Coughlin
Woodbury, MN and River Falls, WI

Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

It'll probably piss off both groups, so it sounds like the best fix to me

It does sound like the best way, having 2WD cars in Open4WD would have been silly. I'm liking it.

I am confused by the displacement limits. It looks like you have stricken the maximum displacement limits but there are limits to the weight categories? The way I read it there is still a displacement limit of 3.2L on NA motors and 2.5L on forced induction motors. Maybe you need a catch all displacement class that has a higher weight penalty. Like above the top line add 500 lbs.

Also, this is more of a general observation. I have never understood why in north american rally car weight does not include the driver / co-driver and their gear. If the goal is competitive weight balance then all items including people should be in the car during an official weigh in. The WRC includes the drivers and co drivers so does most other forms of motorsports. This makes larger / fatter drivers to no be unfairly penalized. Since the car weights are varying by as little as 200 lbs. You could easily get a driver / co-driver pairing that is 100+ lbs different and have all participants still be relatively fit.

As a fat man, I agree with Andrew's observations.

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"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

I see the same as Andrew. You're still regulating max cc at 3200 NA. While it is a step in the right direction (baby step) it still ignores many motors and the trend of manufactures to produce above 3500cc 6cylinders and forced induction in many of those.

I don't know what Nelsons or Hintzs BMWs weigh but adding weight increase stopping distances, reduces tire life, increases road wear, increases cost, increases distance or momentum of a vehicle leaving the roadway. Then you have the added grief of determining how to add weight, where, type of material, how secured etc. Still plenty to think about.

Seriously...G5 isn't a big lop sided for sure win and not every G5 driver is capable of driving one to victory. Massive effort for minimum problem. While I'm a supporter of 2 classes OA I still don't see CARS solution as a viable answer.

I got beatup on the first day at Nameless by a non turbo car.....second day we turned the boost down on the car, picked up the pace a bit and got closer in times, but still got beat in my big bad turbo car.....power don't mean shit.

One class: 2wd.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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Bottom line, I hate all the classes we have, especially the ones that have low entries. I hate seeing all the "We got 1st place in class!!!" except they were a Production car, in a field of 1, who finished dead last in an event.

It's always tough on the G5 vs G2 arguments. Granted, many G5 drivers can't drive worth beans and end up being slower than the G2 guys or their cars are just larger displacement motors. The way I see it, with the regular competition, I wouldn't mind G2/G5 being put together. However, when guys like Doug Shepherd show up in a G5 car they'll put the hurt on the 2WD guys no doubt.

The weight limits are a good start, or at least maybe combine them but keep the adjusted displacement modifiers for turbo (1.7 multiplier) vs NA (1.0 multiplier). However that's not always the case that a 1.7 is right. 100hp/L is pretty good for NA motors that rev high, so my 1.6L B16 makes 160HP, if I slap a turbo on it, I should in theory be pushing out ~272HP by their displacement calculations. Do-able but that's a pretty hot little turbo motor. Even taking a 2.0L motor @ 200hp, at turbo in theory should be pushing 340hp.

So finding that balance to what is within reason could be a challenge but I'd say why not just keep the 1.7 multiplier. Basically, if you want to bulid a turbo motor with a peak HP that can be used on gravel roads and be right on the line of perfect power/weight limit, build a small displacement turbo motor.

The issues with weights (at least when I compare to Rally 'Merica weights) are almost unobtainable on lower displacement cars. My minimum weight on my Civic is legally 1848lbs. There is no way in hell that I can reasonably get there. The other issue from this comes down to regional rally inforcement where having a set of $1000 scales isn't really something that every regional group has and would likely be something that only happens during a concurent regional/nationl event...

Thoughts?

I dont get the max displacement rule but the weight rule is dead on I think. Spewing agruguments about how to mount lead and bring up stop disatance is a joke when 90% of the rallycars competing wiegh more then 2700lbs to 2900lbs. If CARS came up with a wieght of 4000lbs then I would agree. These weights seems close to actual wieght of most large displacement cars no? I say good job!

Can be like Subaru and carry spare parts as ballast. I seen tie rods control arms tools all sorts of spares in Higgins car.

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First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Doug Shepherd would smoke 90% of the 2wd field in a Geo.

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-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

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Forced Induction Engines:
Restricted Induction Up to 2000cc –No Minimum Vehicle Weight
Restricted Induction 2001cc to 2500cc –Vehicle Minimum Weight 2700lbs
Un-Restricted Induction Up to 2500cc –Vehicle Minimum Weight 2900lbs

Does that mean that restrictors are still required for 2wd turbo cars unless they weigh 2900+ lbs?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2013 12:10PM by Carl S.

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wvonkessler
As a fat man, I agree with Andrew's observations.

Except he's wrong..
FIA weights is with oil, water.

Re the important things:

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12.6.2.1 Engine Displacement and weight.
Vehicles must meet the following minimum weight, dependant on the engine displacement and use of forced induction.

Naturally Aspirated Engines:

Up to 2500cc –No Minimum Vehicle Weight
2501cc to 3200cc –Vehicle Minimum Weight 2700lbs



Forced Induction Engines:

A) Restricted Induction Up to 2000cc –No Minimum Vehicle Weight
Restricted Induction 2001cc to 2500cc –Vehicle Minimum Weight 2700lbs
C)Un-Restricted Induction Up to 2500cc –Vehicle Minimum Weight 2900lbs

Logically if one is making options--fair options---there should be some consistency.


Normally in thinking its almost natural to think--If this, then that and if THAT, then this'

So once the idea of weights is breached it makes sense that there's SOMETHING stated--so those that have to meet some weight feel the weight things is applied fairly...

And since there IS under A) a restricted up to 2000cc
and a "retricted/unrestricted" dialectic for the 2001cc to 2500cc
There should be a "restricted/unrestricted " pairing for the up to 2000cc pairing

Thus:
Restricted 2000 max..........................whatever 2300
Unrestricted 2000 max..........................whatever 2500
Restricted 2500 max..........................2700
Unrestricted 2500 max..........................2900 pounds (pounds? poids? Que?)

The steps are really rather coarse 500cc is 25% the volume of a 2.0 motor, and 25% is a lot. especially considering the sheer numbers of popular 2300cc motors and the rarity of actual 2.5s

The progression seems obvious in the above--when its presented that clearly..


And of course there is the obvious fairness principle of
"Open is open so if one open class gets 34mm Restrictor, then logically the other open class gets 34mm and cannot have less without logically justified reasons" and since there are no logical reasons ---
what's good for the one Open class must be good for the other Open class

That was unaddressed as far as I could read an dit should be clearly stated: whatever Lola wants, Lola gets--uh Good for the goose, good for the gander.

One for all and all for one.


Note: Bulletins really don't need the trick semi transparent graphics that are mainly black, kill the computer-nerds that have to show their creativity. kill them and burn their bodies. It is the words we need to see, if i want to look at a pretty piccie , I'll look at a pretty piccie.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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Tom B
Doug Shepherd would smoke 90% of the 2wd field in a Geo.

For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada.

HUZHAAA!!!

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2015 Subaru WRX
Traded the Audi for the above
Sold the 1993 Honda Civic EG w/B16A Conversion to the Raw Racing boys
6 bicycles because, you know, global warming and all

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AnthonyLatham
For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada even though it's competely removed from the reality of the automotive enthusiast industry.

Ha.

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Grant Hughes

Quote
AnthonyLatham

Quote
Tom B
Doug Shepherd would smoke 90% of the 2wd field in a Geo.

For me this was really the heart of the issue. We needed a class that would help produce more Doug Shepard-like drivers and I believe we now have it in Canada.

HUZHAAA!!!

Tavarich Lathamski you are a Structualist! The structure does not produce above ordinary results. That comes from inside the individual. The structure (organisation) give the person with the drive a tableau on which he can carry out his art.

The thinking that other people by manipulating rules and regulations can "spark" something inside Joe Blow's skull is wrong thinking...

The question you are grappling with is where are the people that want to test themselves and have the drive to stick with the sport long enough to accumulate enough experience to do well...

Obviously, with the shift in who is mainly in the sport to the current mainly desk-bound, white collar , more than average affluence type people, we have seen a shift from emphasis on "doing" to the dominant social model of "consumption".
And the problem of finding MORE people with internal "drive" and "grit" is now far harder....
This is the heart of the question is many areas including schooling of our children..
Very fundamental differences in how different people regard and approach challenges and uncertainty.
And this dichotomy is reflected in "real world" things like the increasingly polarized politics in both my country and yours.

Serious shit.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.